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post #1 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-19-2011, 08:27 PM Thread Starter
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What is wrong?

Do you see any mistakes in this article? Errors in any statements? Take a look and see what you think.

Veteran with service dog denied entrance to gentleman's club - WMBFNews.com | Myrtle Beach/Florence, SC | News, Weather, Sports

Beginning of the article:
MYRTLE BEACH, SC (WMBF) – A 28-year-old manager of a gentleman's club has been arrested after allegedly refusing service to a man with a service dog early Saturday morning.

According to a police report, officers met with the 24-year-old victim around 1 a.m. who told police he and his service animal were not allowed inside the Penthouse Club, located at 716 Seaboard St.

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post #2 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-20-2011, 10:26 AM
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Several other gentleman's clubs in the Grand Strand told WMBF that while they've never dealt with people bringing service animals into their establishment, they can see the bright lights, noise, and general distractions of the club causing issues for the animals. One club, however, disagrees.
"If it's a vested service animal and has credentials, you can't deny it," says David Birch, owner of Derriere's on Seaboard Street. "That's federal law."
A service dog does not have to be vested nor does it have to have credentials.
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post #3 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-21-2011, 12:35 AM Thread Starter
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A service dog does not have to be vested nor does it have to have credentials.




A point that may not stand out to some ...

Quote:
"It could be a character issue where the person is unruly or intoxicated," says Capt. Knipes, "But we're referring to an ADA violation here."
Yes, refusing him entry is an ADA violation but that is not what the manager was arrested for. The ADA is a Civil Rights law. City or County police officers do not arrest violators of a Civil Rights law. The manager was arrested because SC has a state law that pretty much mirrors the ADA (Civil Rights Law) on this point. It was a violation of SC State Law (Criminal Law) on which the manager was in fact arrested.

Quote:
Warrants were requested for Frosch on a charge of interfering with rights of blind or disabled person.

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post #4 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-21-2011, 08:20 PM
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I didn't see it perhaps, but what was the victims disability. All I saw was that he couldn't bend over and that the service animal picked things up for him. Did I understand the service animal and the disability?

I also can not bend over very good due to two full knee replacements and bypass surgery.

Now please don't anybody misunderstand my question as I really am curious.

My question - My GSD also is extremely well trained to fetch things (almost anything) and bring them to me - actually will selectively retrieve a few things by name.

Under the ADA, would he be consideres a service dog and could actually go anywhere with me?

I think that I heard that no business can even ask what my disability is (i.e. can't kneel or bend over hardly at all) or what the dog does for me (or maybe they can ask this, I am not sure). But no certification is required or needed or can be asked for, I think?

What would stop me from bringing my dog into a restaurant or movie or ???? type business. My limited bending or kneeling is exactly the case and my dogs retrieving is also very good.

Just curious as to what if any provisions are in the ADA to prevent this type of "DIY" service dog? Or maybe this is exactly what was intended in this law????

BTW, if it were needed my orthopedic surgeon would certainly certify that I cannot kneel or bend over very much.
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post #5 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-21-2011, 08:36 PM
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It did not go in depth as to what his disability was (nor did it have to).

They can ask what tasks the dog performs to mitigate your disability. No certification is required, needed, or can be asked for.

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post #6 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-21-2011, 09:56 PM Thread Starter
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My question - My GSD also is extremely well trained to fetch things (almost anything) and bring them to me - actually will selectively retrieve a few things by name.

Under the ADA, would he be consideres a service dog and could actually go anywhere with me?

Would you be able to prove in a court of law that you are Legally Disabled? Legally disabled is not the same as medically disabled. A doctor can say a person is medically disabled and give a formal statement that in their opinion that a person meets the qualifications of being legally disabled. A judge can ask for your medical records.

Would you be able to prove in a court of law that your dog has been trained to perform a task that is needed to mitigate your legal disability? Do you have documentation proving this training? Can you demonstrate to a judge why you need the dog? Can you prove to a judge that your dog is safe to be taken into the public? (Do you have documentation of obedience classes, evaluations, certificates, or temperament testing?) A judge can ask for any of this.

We can not tell you if you are legally disabled. For specifics you would need to talk with your doctor as their medical opinion will count toward your legal standing. You also can clarify points up through your state General Attorney's Office, a lawyer specializing in disability law, and the ADA hotline.

Always remember, once you ask a doctor to help you claim legal disability and that you need a SD it will go into and become a part of your permanent medical records.

TJ aka Theresa A. Jennings
Pyro vom Wildhaus aka Kaleb ~S.T.A.R.~
Family Companion, Non-Profit Mascot, In-Home Service Dog


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post #7 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-21-2011, 11:49 PM
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It did not go in depth as to what his disability was (nor did it have to).

They can ask what tasks the dog performs to mitigate your disability. No certification is required, needed, or can be asked for.
How about anything about the handicap of the person with the dog?

So someone could just tell them that "my dog is a service dog" and nobody can do any checking to confirm it?

If that is the case, what an opportunity for some folks. Seems like there should be something in the law to help business owners (and the resat of the public) to prevent that.
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post #8 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-22-2011, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ILGHAUS View Post
Would you be able to prove in a court of law that you are Legally Disabled? Legally disabled is not the same as medically disabled. A doctor can say a person is medically disabled and give a formal statement that in their opinion that a person meets the qualifications of being legally disabled. A judge can ask for your medical records.

As I ask below - what gets the dog handler in front of a judge in the first place if the business owner can not ask about anything or even any documentation. It seems the owner got arrested with out anyone doing any checking of the dog handler. Or did I miss that part of the article?

Would you be able to prove in a court of law that your dog has been trained to perform a task that is needed to mitigate your legal disability? Do you have documentation proving this training? Can you demonstrate to a judge why you need the dog? Can you prove to a judge that your dog is safe to be taken into the public? Can any one ever PROVE that their dog is 100% safe. I would be willing to bet that I could get most dogs to show some aggression if pushed hard enough? What did the authors of the ADA law put into the law indicating how exactly one goes about "proving" the safety of any dog? I would love to see that as it could also be put into all of the temperament testing and even into obedience classes. BTW, are you saying that an obedience class certificate of completion is ANY form of proving that a dog is SAFE? From what I have seen in a large number of obedience classes over many years, I certainly would not say this whatsoever. (Do you have documentation of obedience classes, evaluations, certificates, or temperament testing?) A judge can ask for any of this. Why would they, are you (and the law) saying that if your dog has such that he/she is safe to be in any of the crazy situations found in many retail stores and movies and such?
How about the AKC Canine Good Citizenship title? Is that one acceptable to a judge under the ADA?
Hope not from many of the dogs that I have seen pass that!
We can not tell you if you are legally disabled. For specifics you would need to talk with your doctor as their medical opinion will count toward your legal standing. You also can clarify points up through your state General Attorney's Office, a lawyer specializing in disability law, and the ADA hotline.

Always remember, once you ask a doctor to help you claim legal disability and that you need a SD it will go into and become a part of your permanent medical records.
Thanks for the info!

Obviously, I have absolutely no intention to try to say my dog is a service dog - just inquiring (because I don't know!) as to what is required to do so and what method is available of confirming such a thing for the business owner.

It just appears to my admitedly foggy brain that it is just a natural situation for someone to easily scam business owners and the public.

For example, how would I get to the position of being before a judge? I thought that the business owner (nor anyone else) can ask the person to prove or demonstrate anything about the handicap and the dog?

Did the subject in the article have to "prove" his "disability" before the owner could be arrested for denying his dog entrance to the public place?

Seems like he should of had to do so - since I am also assuming that if the guy wasn't disabled and/or his dog wasn't a legitimate service dog (how ever that is defined in the ADA or state law in this case, I guess) than the owner had not committed a crime? (I am of course assuming that the business owner has the right to deny other than service dogs (or other protected groups) entrance to his place of business.

A most confusing law (at least to me). Really seems like our legislators rushed this one (with a great goal in mind, no doubt) through without really understanding many of the details and impacts to the public and to business owners.

Course my knowledge may certainly be clouded due to a misunderstanding of the law and it's enforcement and requirements and options for business owners to be able to control what goes on in their establishments, no doubt.
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post #9 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-22-2011, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Xeph View Post
It did not go in depth as to what his disability was (nor did it have to).

They can ask what tasks the dog performs to mitigate your disability. No certification is required, needed, or can be asked for.
So if I understand it right, the owner can ask that question and the dog handler can say "This and that" and that is the end of it - is that right? No matter what the answer the owner can not deny the dog entrance (as long as the dog is not foaming at the mouth figurativly speaking and thus an obvious dangerous dog)? Can the owner force the dog handler to "prove" his disability and/or the dog necessity and capability to a judge as someone else on here said to me? If so, how? If not, then how does it get before a judge? Maybe in the owners defense in the trial for his crime of denying access?
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post #10 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-26-2011, 09:34 PM
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codmaster, do you have memory loss?


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