Expanding the Gene Pool - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 14Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-24-2016, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
Doc
Knighted Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,068
Expanding the Gene Pool

This is an interesting article especially for those who are really interesting in the future of the German shepherd breed.

Three key strategies to reduce genetic disorders in dogs - The Institute of Canine Biology
Doc is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-24-2016, 07:07 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Coeur d' Alene
Posts: 4,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
This is an interesting article especially for those who are really interesting in the future of the German shepherd breed.

Three key strategies to reduce genetic disorders in dogs - The Institute of Canine Biology
Thanks Doc. I agree all the way with the clarity of the article. We must give credit however for the research and science that, though rather redundant, verified what many knew about the pollution of the gene pool, yet the fight to maintain its exclusivity.....

I've attempted conversations on this topic several times but never got far as some seemed to take the questions as personal attacks. This needs to get talked about as we all look toward the future.

I have been at a loss trying to imagine how, with the genetics so knotted and woven that it can ever be set right again (health wise) and I see a dismal future.

The concept and application of the "world seed bank preserves" seems to be the soundest principal to me. We are going to have to rebuild the breeds from basics, learning from our mistakes.......
Stonevintage is offline  
post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-24-2016, 11:07 PM Thread Starter
Doc
Knighted Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,068
It appears that many breeders do not consider the complexity of genetics particularly when selecting breeding mates. Just because " a Judge" picks a particular dog as Champion does not mean that the dog has great genetics. It is very obvious where that mentality has led us. Politics, breed, and money has pushed the science of breeding under the bus. We are seeing the results of that push more and more. Sad. Very sad.
Doc is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 12:46 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Coeur d' Alene
Posts: 4,418
I don't see how - today - the most conscientious breeder could hope to select properly.

The honest breeder will say health problems can happen anywhere with this dog.

The couple of dated tests that are available to breeders don't touch the surface - though there are much more advanced tests available through trials. I would like to see more breeders participating in these with the vet colleges that can crunch the genes.... UC Davis is one. But it would take their local vet's time and time is money..... to participate in the trials. Same problem we're having with human trials on the latest promising cancer killers. Doctors can't find the time....

My sister became involved with UC Davis trials back in the 80's with her goat herds. She ended up being involved in a major way as a contributor to the creation of a hardy, healthy strain of goat that could eat scrub and survive well. This boosted the survival rate of children in Africa. She ended up being tied with their studies for 20+ years until retirement.
Stonevintage is offline  
post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 01:16 AM
Senior Member
 
viking's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 375
These are classic strategies of good breeding, no? Not trying to be a smart alec. Surely there are poor breeders out there who don't know or care but are they reading The Institute of Canine Biology?

I'm guessing its just a page filler for the publication, nothing wrong with that because the principles are as sound today as they were however long ago animal husbandry developed. I'm not an anthropologist, so not my wheelhouse but its got to be thousands of years ago.
viking is offline  
post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 01:41 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Coeur d' Alene
Posts: 4,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by viking View Post
These are classic strategies of good breeding, no? Not trying to be a smart alec. Surely there are poor breeders out there who don't know or care but are they reading The Institute of Canine Biology?

I'm guessing its just a page filler for the publication, nothing wrong with that because the principles are as sound today as they were however long ago animal husbandry developed. I'm not an anthropologist, so not my wheelhouse but its got to be thousands of years ago.
It's a bit different Viking. Because 80% of all dog breeds didn't exist 130 years ago and at the extreme acceleration their crossing has occurred in the last few decades - it's basically animal husbandry on steroids..... no another domesticated animal species had been subjected to this rapid diversity.

There is this mysterious repeating dna sequence in the dog that allows for such rapid mutation. It's very easy for introduced altered or new cell packages to attach... like a bus that will stop to pick up passengers at 150 stops vs 1 stop. This allows us the freedom to mickey with the species much more readily than most. That, plus the dog is a whimsy now days, not specifically bred for a specific purpose like cattle or other livestock..... Our imagination is the limit....
Stonevintage is offline  
post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 02:23 AM
Senior Member
 
viking's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonevintage View Post
It's a bit different Viking. Because 80% of all dog breeds didn't exist 130 years ago and at the extreme acceleration their crossing has occurred in the last few decades - it's basically animal husbandry on steroids..... no another domesticated animal species had been subjected to this rapid diversity.

There is this mysterious repeating dna sequence in the dog that allows for such rapid mutation. It's very easy for introduced altered or new cell packages to attach... like a bus that will stop to pick up passengers at 150 stops vs 1 stop. This allows us the freedom to mickey with the species much more readily than most. That, plus the dog is a whimsy now days, not specifically bred for a specific purpose like cattle or other livestock..... Our imagination is the limit....
Okay, I don't see the article at issue addressing what you are referencing at all. Its hard to get a clear picture of what you're saying. The article was discussing the very slim number of genetic tests we have for health concerns and the impossibility of developing genetic tests for all diseases due to the exponential increase of mutations from inbreeding.
viking is offline  
post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 10:36 AM Thread Starter
Doc
Knighted Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,068
In a world where a roached back, red and black, hock walking German shepherd is crowned Champion, something is terribly wrong. When the majority of Champion dogs look alike, something is wrong. The article emphasizes that when you breed withing the same tainted gene pool, there are numerous "disorders" (my word) that can occur. And these occurrences can happen at a much faster rate than the test needed to scan for it. In other words, if you keep mixing the same genes, you get the same results PLUS increase the chance of new genetic combinations that may produce more medical disorders and challenges.
Recent DNA results now indicate that the many of the eastern (Chezh) German shepherds have a different DNA than other German shepherds outside of that region. So in our lifetime, we have seen some evolution within the breed. And I posit that this is a result of artificial selection - mans breeding for a specific purpose. The original breeders of shepherds relied on natural selection over artificial selection to establish the foundation of this breed. Breeders captialized on what natural selection gave them. And in the vase of the foundational breeds that make up the German shepherd, they all bought different traits (in the form of their genetic makeup) to the table. The challenge was to combine the right genes to produce a dog that was versatile - a Jack of all trades but master of none - if you will.
Today, that genetic diversity has been neglected and the once genetically diverse and rich gene pool is no longer the driving force behind many breeding programs.
Doc is offline  
post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-25-2016, 11:09 AM
Senior Member
 
viking's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 375
Doc-

That seems like a fair reading of the piece you linked. I saw the video here that someone posted a short while ago of the award winning GSD who was clearly on its hocks. It was painful to see.
viking is offline  
post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-26-2016, 07:21 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: northern calif
Posts: 99
Here is some food for thought.

Dogs have 78 chromosomal strings, as opposed to the 46 humans have. This accounts for their resistance to sustained in-breeding as well as their great plasticity in the formation of variety--the Great Dane to the Chihuahua--but in the German Shepherd we are now beginning a second century of in-breeding, and we are building on a mountain of back-massing that permeates the entire breed.

Line-breeding, the breeding of first, second and third cousins is in-breeding one or two generations removed.

In (short for incest) breeding is the breeding of mother to son, father to daughter, brother to sister and uncle to niece.

In-breeding and line-breeding are used in the formation of breeds to 'set type' and create uniformity by limiting the gene pool.

Limiting the gene pool is done to make it more likely that the breeder will score the particular characteristics desired in the cosmic lottery of gene selection when the genes from a male and female are combined. It also makes it more likely that perhaps unwanted recessives will occur.

An example of the occurrence of recessives--the color black. Originated with a dog named Roland v Starkenburg (the first black GSD born 1902). Virtually all black GSDs come from Roland. Because black is a recessive allele, in order for a black pup to be born, he must receive the allele from both parents, ie, mom must add the black recessive allele and dad must also add the black recessive allele, so that the pup has no other color 'choice'. Pup is black. Again, because black is recessive, a black and tan or sable bred to a black individual may very well produce an all black and tan or all sable litter of pups. This is common. As a result of this, one fine day, a sable is bred to a sable, or a black and tan, and whoopsie! one or two or even half the litter is born black.

The recessive alleles have traveled down through the years and the generations, maybe 40 years, maybe 7 or 8 generations, only to suddenly appear. Often, no one knew they were there.

Somebody who wants black dogs then in-breeds black to related black, in order to produce blacks on a consistent basis. Sophisticated breeders know this method will work.

BUT. Here's the kicker. Many, many genetic 'disorders' travel the same way, unseen, and until recently, undetectable, until in-breeding brings them to the fore. The same 'uniformity' that makes the 'black and red' dog in the German High Line, the sable in the German working line, black dogs and white dogs, serves to increase the odds that two or more (EPI is not completely understood yet, genetically, but so far we know that 3 recessive alleles are involved) recessive alleles will wind up in the same pup at the same time.

Some people insist that we go ahead and line/in-breed and then simply test the pups (result) and eliminate the undesired results. Now, never mind the culling controversy--what do we do with the undesired result? how many disorders can we eliminate only to find others cropping up? or do we start making judgments--this disorder is not so bad but that one is?

Here are some of the disorders currently appearing:
EPI
SIBO
IBD
hip dysplasia
elbow dysplasia
anal fistulas
vWildebrands (Canine Hemophilia)
juvenile renal dysplasia
DM
cardiomyeopathy
seizures/rage syndrome
allergies
Mega E

At this time, while many of these disorders are associated with specific 'lines' while others, like EPI, are distributed widely through-out the breed.
'Out' breeding 'buries' the disorder but does not eliminate it. It can still crop up here and there but becomes far less common.

Some people advocate eliminating any dog that carries the disorder from the gene pool. If done rigorously enough, this will result in the elimination of that disorder, but in many of the instances where this method has been tried, something even worse has emerged, brought to the fore and made more common by the in-breeding and the narrowing of the gene pool used to find and eliminate a less lethal allele.

And so it goes. khawh

khawk
khawk is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome