Bleed through of color in offspring of two white GSDs? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-12-2015, 06:16 PM Thread Starter
Master Member
 
RunShepherdRun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MA
Posts: 751
Bleed through of color in offspring of two white GSDs?

I ordered an AKC research pedigree for the one 'mystery dog' in my Elly's 3 generation pedigree. Acc. to the AKC research pedigree, the mystery great granddam, registered as a sable, descended of two parents registered as white. Actually all dogs in the 5 gen research pedigree were registered as white.

Now I know that white is a recessive masking gene in the GSD and that two white GSDs will produce white puppies although they all carry color on a different locus.

Lisa suggested to me that there can be bleed through of color in whites, and Elly's 'sable' ancestor might have been registered incorrectly. A light bulb went on. What resurfaced in my mind then was the information given to me by a person familiar with the 'Rin Tin Tin' breeding program. Rin Tin Tin IV (the one in the 50s movies) showed a very light colored saddle, favored as it worked well for the black and white movies of the time. Lee Duncan himself is to have crossed whites in with the black/tans to get this dilute color. And the contemporary Rin Tin Tin kennel that line bred on Rin Tin Tin IV is said to do the same to maintain the color of Rin Tin Tin IV.

An incorrect registration can happen easily as 'sable' isn't a precise term in terms of genetics. A sable dog with tri-banded hair is an agouti in the language of genetics. I've heard the light colored saddles referred to as sable several times, too, and I can see how that happens. A light colored saddle can appear sable but doesn't have the tri-band hair of the agouti.

Does anyone know of bleed through 'sables' with known ancestry? The genetics of this may not be understood yet, but maybe more color genetics savvy members can comment on what is known about the genetics of this color?

I have to decide whether I will include this research pedigree in a genomic diversity analysis or whether I should dismiss it as incorrect, leaving a hole in Elly's otherwise multi-gen pedigree. Thank you for your input!

Rin Tin Tin IV: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...rin-tin-tin-iv

FKA RunSarahRun
Chip v. Dog Pound (border terrier), CGC
Elly v. Rescue (GSD, GSRNE 346), HI(C), CGC, TT
RIP: Feli, Iris, Dago (GSDs), Bubi (spitz), Tanja and Robin (mutts)

Last edited by RunShepherdRun; 05-12-2015 at 06:23 PM. Reason: typo
RunShepherdRun is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-13-2015, 03:14 AM
Master Member
 
Cschmidt88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Anderson, CA
Posts: 658
If white GSDs are producing by the combo of the recessive black and recessive red masking genes (As I believe Samoyeds are) Then I do not believe bleed through it plausible. Because the recessive black gene stops any red from being produced in the coat, and the recessive red stops any black from being produced in the coat, hence a white dog. There needs to be two copies of these recessive genes in order for them to work.
Dog Coat Colour Genetics
Dog Coat Colour Genetics

The super light base red coats are not produced by "bleed through" of other genes. The intensity of the red coat is affected by the I locus. Info here:
Dog Coat Colour Genetics

Here's info on "Sable" in GSDs, aka Wolf Grey/Agouti. My only other suggestion would be to maybe try and contact the person who runs this site and see if they may be able to shed more light?
Dog Coat Colour Genetics

Dakonic German Shepherds

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Cschmidt88 is offline  
post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-13-2015, 08:15 AM Thread Starter
Master Member
 
RunShepherdRun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MA
Posts: 751
Thank you for your response! In GSDs it is a recessive gene for white (not for black) that expresses white color. This locus of this gene is called MC1R and the recessive allele for white on this locus is called e. The letter stands for 'extension'. The hypothetical I gene ('i' for intensity) that is discussed in the source that you quote might be an explanation for what is called 'bleed through' by breeders, and it could be responsible for the silver/light tan shades of very light colored 'sable' GSDs (that are not agouti sable). So far, it has been thought to regulate reddish/tan colors, not silver shades. This I could be a single locus or the interaction of different loci, we don't know yet. TY for posting the link to the 'doggenetics' site, it's one of the pages that I consulted as well, very informative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunShepherdRun View Post
Now I know that white is a recessive masking gene in the GSD and that two white GSDs will produce white puppies although they all carry color on a different locus.
The most detailed source that I found on on coat color in WGSDs is this page: White Shepherd Genetics Project - Coat Color Quote:
"When an e allele at MC1R is inherited from each parent, the e/e genotype offspring can have only phaeomelanin (yellow/red) based coat colors of yellow, tan, light brown, red/rust or cream."

Rephrasing my question to be more precise: How much color can a GSD who is known to carry e/e express?

FKA RunSarahRun
Chip v. Dog Pound (border terrier), CGC
Elly v. Rescue (GSD, GSRNE 346), HI(C), CGC, TT
RIP: Feli, Iris, Dago (GSDs), Bubi (spitz), Tanja and Robin (mutts)
RunShepherdRun is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-13-2015, 10:01 AM
Crowned Member
 
Magwart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,349
Is this what you mean by "bleed through" (a white dog with a faint silver/black saddle showing)?
Magwart is offline  
post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-13-2015, 07:19 PM Thread Starter
Master Member
 
RunShepherdRun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MA
Posts: 751
Yes, Magwart, thank you. The coat color of the dog in your photo is likely true bleed through. But I am also still exploring!

Would one think of such a color as 'sable"?

It could perhaps also be a dog with a bit more pigment, but still very light or 'diluted'. Pics are of Rin Tin Tin dogs from the contemporary Rin Tin Tin kennel, posted with url. Rin Tin Tin b/c it's a line where colored and white dogs have been crossed many times to get a very light color. This light pale color is sometimes called 'sable' but it is not 'agouti sable'.

This color is also often considered 'poor pigmentation' b/c the standard calls for strong pigmentation. I don't consider it 'poor' b/c the dog is fully functional, the pale color doesn't come with any side effects. But that's just a side note


http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~jh939/C...-Full-Size.jpg
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~jh939/C...-Full-Size.jpg

FKA RunSarahRun
Chip v. Dog Pound (border terrier), CGC
Elly v. Rescue (GSD, GSRNE 346), HI(C), CGC, TT
RIP: Feli, Iris, Dago (GSDs), Bubi (spitz), Tanja and Robin (mutts)
RunShepherdRun is offline  
post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-13-2015, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
Master Member
 
RunShepherdRun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MA
Posts: 751
Rin Tin Tin XII and Rin Tin Tin's Quella Hollywood Dogs
(again dogs from this kennel only chosen to see the color pattern)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2015-05-13 at 7.08.20 PM.jpg
Views:	368
Size:	20.6 KB
ID:	294114   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2015-05-13 at 7.24.46 PM.jpg
Views:	274
Size:	18.9 KB
ID:	294122  

FKA RunSarahRun
Chip v. Dog Pound (border terrier), CGC
Elly v. Rescue (GSD, GSRNE 346), HI(C), CGC, TT
RIP: Feli, Iris, Dago (GSDs), Bubi (spitz), Tanja and Robin (mutts)
RunShepherdRun is offline  
post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-13-2015, 07:34 PM Thread Starter
Master Member
 
RunShepherdRun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MA
Posts: 751
'Silver Sable' randomly grabbed from the internet, age of dog is 8.5 mths. Pix For > Silver Sable German Shepherd
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2015-05-13 at 7.28.21 PM.jpg
Views:	730
Size:	19.2 KB
ID:	294130  

FKA RunSarahRun
Chip v. Dog Pound (border terrier), CGC
Elly v. Rescue (GSD, GSRNE 346), HI(C), CGC, TT
RIP: Feli, Iris, Dago (GSDs), Bubi (spitz), Tanja and Robin (mutts)
RunShepherdRun is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome