Color Genetics Question - German Shepherd Dog Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 03:13 AM Thread Starter
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,306
Send a message via AIM to ChancetheGSD Send a message via Yahoo to ChancetheGSD
Color Genetics Question

Alright, I'm useless when it comes to genetics so I figured this would be the place to ask. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I pick up, as long as each parent carries and passes on the black gene then a puppy out of two sable parents can be black, yes?

If so, what are the odds of the majority of a litter out of two sables being dominated by black puppies? :/
ChancetheGSD is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 08:08 AM
Master Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Cascade, Michigan (GR)
Posts: 680
If I understand correctly the sable coloration is dominant and black is recessive. So in order to get a solid black out of sable parents, both parents would need to carry the black gene. That being said if both parents are recessive for black then each offspring has a 1 in 4 chance of being solid black. So it isn't very likely to have a litter full of solid black pups, but I guess it could happen.

" If you think dogs can't count, try putting three dog biscuits in your pocket and then giving Fido only two of them"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Starting the search for my next family member!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Danielle
Danielle609 is offline  
post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 08:17 AM
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: ontario -
Posts: 13,917
unless the OP is looking at a litter recently born , appearing to be "black" - give it a few weeks and you might see that the pups are black or dark sables .?
carmspack is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 09:19 AM
Knighted Member
 
fuzzybunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielle609 View Post
If I understand correctly the sable coloration is dominant and black is recessive. So in order to get a solid black out of sable parents, both parents would need to carry the black gene. That being said if both parents are recessive for black then each offspring has a 1 in 4 chance of being solid black. So it isn't very likely to have a litter full of solid black pups, but I guess it could happen.
If I remember my grade 11 biology correctly, then this is correct.

Jazz, Shiloh Shepherd, 5 yrs old, CGC HIC
Bunny, GSD X, 7.5 years old
fuzzybunny is offline  
post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 09:37 AM
Administrator & LOTR Addict
 
lhczth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Bloomington, IN, USA
Posts: 18,671
Colors never seem to play the odds. You could breed two dogs together who carry the black recessive and not get a single black puppy. You could also get mostly black puppies.

I bred a b/t that carres black to a black. The odds were 50/50. 7 puppies, 5 black, two dark b/t like mom. Bred a b/t that carries black to a sable that carries BI. Got all b/t that carry BI (25% chance). Not a single sable (50%) or BI pup (25%) in the litter. LOL

Lisa Clark

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

SG1 Deja IPO3 AWD1 KKL1 B/HOT, SG Elena IPO1 KKL CGC B/HOT, LB (the ugly little sable) IPO2 KKL B/HOT, and gone but not forgotten,
Vala SchH3 AWD1 FH2 CGC B/HOT, Donovan IPO1 TR2 AD, Nike SchH1 OB1 TR3 AD CGC HOT, Treue SchH3 CD CGC HOT



lhczth is offline  
post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 09:42 AM
Crowned Member
 
wolfstraum's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 11,098
Have had several litters from two sables that had black pups....Bashas sire was black, she had black or black/tans in every litter...Hexe is from 2 sables, had one black littermate and had black pups to Nick del Lupo Nero who is sable...Csabre is sable, sire is black, had all sables to Gaston - so he probably is homozygous for sable...so don't know if any of the pups carry black (crossed fingers)...

Look at the pedigree, see if any of the grandparents produced black or if either dog has black littermates.

Lee

Hexe Sch2, Komet & Kougar IPO1, Kira HGH, SG Bengal, Lynx v Wolfstraum ~ Ziberia IPO1 ~ ATB Basha, Kougar & Kyra, Fenja, Sch3s, Cito, Sch2, DangerRH, Csabre & Alice Sch1s ~Kelsey
wolfstraum.net
wolfstraum is offline  
post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 09:48 AM
Knighted Member
 
qbchottu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,266
Ehret German Shepherds - Breeding Announcements
Remember that whatever the odds of a genetic cross, EACH pup is a new roll of the dice so like Lisa says, although the odds might be 50/50, you could end up getting a litter with ALL black or no black.

Ash
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
qbchottu is offline  
post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,306
Send a message via AIM to ChancetheGSD Send a message via Yahoo to ChancetheGSD
Thanks for the replies guys! Kind of what I figured but slightly hoped you guys would tell me I'm crazy and reading everything wrong. Lol!

The problem is, I can't just look at pedigree anymore. I was told Gretchen was out of two dogs named Sheeba and Yogi. I had questioned the breeder a while back why the name on the dams side said Holly instead of Sheeba since he registers ALL his dogs by their call and his kennel name. He requires this of his puppies too. He just told me it was the same dog and I took his word for it. Well now I'm wondering if the sire is even correct. :/ He told me Yogi was the dad, which is what Gretchen's papers say. Problem is, I was going through their old breeding updates and every post was about them breeding Sheeba to Lucas. Now I'm wondering if he didn't breed two unregistered dogs and throw two other dogs papers on the puppies and I'm kind of PO'ed about it. There was never any update up to the breeding or afterwards that they were changing plans on the sire. And given that his kennels are very high quality and escape proof, I just don't see it being an "oops" litter. (And even then I think there should have been an update if that was the case)

Momma is a sable, that is for sure since she obviously gave birth and raised the litter, but her PAPERS can't be guaranteed but regardless of HERS there is still the question of DADS! Yogi is a solid black and Lucas is a black sable.



That is the picture of the litter (with mom) when they were about 5 weeks old. Looking closely though (I didn't pay much attention to the other two pups at the time because I was too busy with MY puppy...) the puppy behind Gretchen seems to have little dots above the eyes and some markings on the toes. Which makes me wonder if he/she wasn't a really a black/dark sable puppy. The other one looks no doubt solid black. Though that is still a really dark sable puppy to be a sable, at least the darkest I've ever seen.

I'm just more than confused and angered if it's true at this point...I love my girl dearly and wouldn't give her up for the world but I feel like I was a bit ripped off. Lucas is pretty nonetheless but I know nothing about him. If I paid for his puppy it would be one thing but I feel pretty stupid telling everyone Gretchen is from x lines when really God may be the only one who truly knows what she is...

Would it even be worth asking the breeder about? I don't really feel it's fair to be lied to if Yogi isn't the daddy. If I've got a puppy out of two random parents I would like to get some money back to just pay "pet price" and use what I spent on her for papers and lines to put towards the medical bills she has racked up since day 1.

Last edited by ChancetheGSD; 10-12-2012 at 12:47 PM.
ChancetheGSD is offline  
post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 01:27 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,130
The thing with genetics is that I'm pretty sure its not just as simple as what the grandparents colors were to see what kind of alleles might be passed on. You also have to look at the great grandparents and even farther back. I don't know if guessing the color combination will give you enough proof that your dog isn't from x sire. Does the breeder have the DNA on record with the AKC? Isn't there are rule about dogs siring a certain amount of litters and then needing to register their DNA? I'd check on that and see if you can prove anything, but as far as looking at the genetics of color...you'll never really get to the bottom of it.
martemchik is offline  
post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 10-12-2012, 01:41 PM
Administrator & LOTR Addict
 
lhczth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Bloomington, IN, USA
Posts: 18,671
The mother, a black sable, was bred to either a black or a black sable.

She obviously carries black so when bred to a black she would have a 50/50 chance of producing black puppies and sable puppies that carry black.

If she was bred to the black sable (who probably carries black) then you would still get black puppies, black sable puppies and then some homozygous (only sable genes) puppies.

The puppies shown are possible from either combination.

IMO the two pups in the back are both black.

The only way you will ever know is if DNA is done on the parents and the pup.

Lisa Clark

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

SG1 Deja IPO3 AWD1 KKL1 B/HOT, SG Elena IPO1 KKL CGC B/HOT, LB (the ugly little sable) IPO2 KKL B/HOT, and gone but not forgotten,
Vala SchH3 AWD1 FH2 CGC B/HOT, Donovan IPO1 TR2 AD, Nike SchH1 OB1 TR3 AD CGC HOT, Treue SchH3 CD CGC HOT



lhczth is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome