Working vs pet - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 167Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 01:15 AM Thread Starter
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,255
Working vs pet

So I’ve been on and off this site since 2015. I’ve learned a lot of valuable information from forum members, but the threads lately seem to be working/sport dogs vs pet dogs. I understand both sides of the coin, but it seems that in every thread people are harping on the value of getting WL pups. What happened to people just wanting a family companion and that being okay? I see working line vs showing lines often recommended to people looking for a pup, and sent to breeders that focus on titling their dogs whether through sport or show. Like a GSD is lessor because they don’t have those lines. It gets frustrating sometimes to see breeders getting shot down because they don’t title their dogs. Is it really that important? To me, temperament and health are far more my concern than whether my pups parents placed in sport, or show, or the word I can’t spell for the life of me (schsomething).

I have a 3 amazing dogs. Not one of their parents were titled. I no nothing of Lyka’s lineage, but I’m pretty positive is was just a line of crap BYB. Crios seems greatly inbred. But he could put some of the sports dog to shame. Seiran is my first puppy purchase, and the breeder is not a large breeder. They don’t title their dogs. Not because they aren’t capable of doing it, many of their offspring compete in various sports and protection and have won a lot of titles. But what drew me to them was the small number of litters they had, the dogs were and are a part of the family. They aren’t left out in outside kennels. They live in their owners home, and have jobs around the farm. Both breeding pair have excellent ratings in hips, their temperaments are amazing, and they aren’t charging thousands of dollars. They sell their pups based on the amount they put into the pup, so basically enough to cover the bitches feed, the pups feed, and vetting. They make sure the pups are healthy, they chose the pups for the owners based on what they are looking for, and Seiran has been exactly what we wanted in a pup. She has drive, and it’s easily directed. She is also super mellow in doors. She shows no aggression or fear under any circumstances, so’s 100% confident in every way.

I just wish more of the members would be more open to these type of breeders. Some members refuse to post breeder information because they don’t want to hear all the negativity from other members going on and on about titling and pedigrees. Like if our pups don’t go back 5 generations of titled dogs, they are somehow defective. At least, that’s the way it feels to me.
cvamoca likes this.
Jchrest is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 01:41 AM
Crowned Member
 
Nigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Washington St.
Posts: 7,099
The basic idea behind titling (schutzhund, ipo, ipg) is to apply pressure or stress and have a third party evaluate the dog performance. Does it have its flaws? Sure, training can mask problems and some judges are better than others, but is it better than relying on anecdotal evidence that you might hear from those who do not test their dogs?
Nigel is offline  
post #3 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 01:47 AM
Knighted Member
 
Sunsilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,124
The reason I choose working line over show line is due to their structure. The German show line dogs mostly have really steep croups and roached backs, which causes them not to be able to move efficiently.

My working line dog has a marvelous off switch, and is quite happy to chill around the house when I can't work her. A well-bred dog should be able to do that. Unfortunately, some WL dogs are bred for over the top drive, and don't make good family companions.
wolfstraum and tc68 like this.
Sunsilver is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 02:12 AM Thread Starter
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
The basic idea behind titling (schutzhund, ipo, ipg) is to apply pressure or stress and have a third party evaluate the dog performance. Does it have its flaws? Sure, training can mask problems and some judges are better than others, but is it better than relying on anecdotal evidence that you might hear from those who do not test their dogs?
I get that, if someone is interested in having a pup perform. But if it’s just for the typical family life, they generally aren’t going to experience the same type of conditions. If I wanted a dog for a specific sport, I’d look into those lines. But when it’s a member asking for information on breeders, and post breeders/litters they are looking at, they are often told it would be a horrible breeder to choose from because they don’t title their dogs. If I want a dog that can handle farm life, and a basic pet companion, I would still be steered towards a breeder that works and titles their dogs. Which in a lot of cases, ends up with the owner choosing a breeder based on the recommendation that only breeders who work and title their dogs are the only ones worthy of looking into, and they get much more dog than they can handle.

And I’m NOT promoting basic BYB that are in it for money. There are breeders out there that are ethical, spend the money for health testing, know their temperaments well, as well as the temperaments of the parents and grandparents of their breeding pair, and they breed for the love of the breed, within proper guidelines of ethical breeding, with the exception of titling their dogs.

I have a health and temperament guarantee on Seiran, and a contract that states she must be spayed after her heat cycle once she is 2. They will take her back if we are ever in a situation where we cannot keep her. So I got everything (including papers) that most people recommend in a breeder, they just don’t have titled dogs.

To each their own, and I would never knock someone who does seek out a breeder with everything including titled parents, or who are into sports or show. I just wish the same curtesy was shown to those who just want a companion, and choose an ethical breeder who may not title their dogs.
Jchrest is offline  
post #5 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 09:22 AM
Crowned Member
 
Jax08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NNE PA
Posts: 30,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
The basic idea behind titling (schutzhund, ipo, ipg) is to apply pressure or stress and have a third party evaluate the dog performance.
I disagree with this. There are 3 phases to IGP (that is soooo hard to say! lol).

Tracking: This is very obedience based in IGP. But this it to prove the dog has hunt drive. You can't have a lot of pressure in this phase. If you do that, the dog will learn to "lie". This phase is really so much about your dog's ability.

Obedience: This is to show the dog's ability to follow direction and work with the handler. You will get points off for the dog showing stress. They want to see a happy dog. The new training methods are very positive. Lure, shape, repetition, proof.

Protection: This phase is about pressure. It's about aggression, transitions, secondary obedience, pressure from the helper in the drives and attacks and stick hits to show control.

It's the system the founder of the breeder set up to ensure the German Shepherd Dog stayed a working dog. It is flawed. Anytime you put humans in the equation and add a trophy, it's flawed. But this is were our SAR dogs and K9's come from. The working stock of ANY breed are where these dogs come from. Guide dogs, SAR, K9's, drug dogs, tracking dogs, MWD's. The only way to protect the breed and keep it as close to what it should be is thru these sports, IGP, PSA, and now American Schutzhund (if that takes off and is what they want it to be)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
Sure, training can mask problems and some judges are better than others,
It sure can. The good breeders wash the dogs out in training. They might still title but they don't breed them. My IPO3 dog was retired this weeks. Allergic to GRASS. Has some issues that I don't like in his nerve. Can't be bred. But man....it was a lot of fun getting there. My 11 month old is up next. But we'll see if she's bred or washed. The title is just the proof you did the work. The training is what you want to watch when looking at dogs.



SG Seger vom Sitz vd Hose, IPO3, AD
G Faren vom Warkonhaus, Monkey in Training

Last edited by Jax08; 07-28-2019 at 09:26 AM.
Jax08 is offline  
post #6 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 10:47 AM
Crowned Member
 
Sabis mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 4,930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jchrest View Post
So Iíve been on and off this site since 2015. Iíve learned a lot of valuable information from forum members, but the threads lately seem to be working/sport dogs vs pet dogs. I understand both sides of the coin, but it seems that in every thread people are harping on the value of getting WL pups. What happened to people just wanting a family companion and that being okay? I see working line vs showing lines often recommended to people looking for a pup, and sent to breeders that focus on titling their dogs whether through sport or show. Like a GSD is lessor because they donít have those lines. It gets frustrating sometimes to see breeders getting shot down because they donít title their dogs. Is it really that important? To me, temperament and health are far more my concern than whether my pups parents placed in sport, or show, or the word I canít spell for the life of me (schsomething).

I have a 3 amazing dogs. Not one of their parents were titled. I no nothing of Lykaís lineage, but Iím pretty positive is was just a line of crap BYB. Crios seems greatly inbred. But he could put some of the sports dog to shame. Seiran is my first puppy purchase, and the breeder is not a large breeder. They donít title their dogs. Not because they arenít capable of doing it, many of their offspring compete in various sports and protection and have won a lot of titles. But what drew me to them was the small number of litters they had, the dogs were and are a part of the family. They arenít left out in outside kennels. They live in their owners home, and have jobs around the farm. Both breeding pair have excellent ratings in hips, their temperaments are amazing, and they arenít charging thousands of dollars. They sell their pups based on the amount they put into the pup, so basically enough to cover the bitches feed, the pups feed, and vetting. They make sure the pups are healthy, they chose the pups for the owners based on what they are looking for, and Seiran has been exactly what we wanted in a pup. She has drive, and itís easily directed. She is also super mellow in doors. She shows no aggression or fear under any circumstances, soís 100% confident in every way.

I just wish more of the members would be more open to these type of breeders. Some members refuse to post breeder information because they donít want to hear all the negativity from other members going on and on about titling and pedigrees. Like if our pups donít go back 5 generations of titled dogs, they are somehow defective. At least, thatís the way it feels to me.
Here is my 2 cents, a nickel for Canadians because we have no cents.

I worked almost exclusively with BYB crap for a couple of decades. I have seen it all, heard it all, handled it all.
I chose GSD's because I wanted a working dog. I wanted a dog that could be it all, and do it all.
If I wanted a pet I would have gotten a Pomeranian.
One of the problems with BYB's is that they don't know. They have a dog in front of them who is pretty, good with kids, barks at the mailman and gives kisses. But they don't know what is behind that. They have no clue about genetic disorders and no idea want made her the way she is so combine those genetics with the really handsome male who actually has crap conformation and unstable temperament and you get lord knows what disaster.
Pet owners don't understand correct angulation, they don't get that your "protective" dog is insecure and is going to come unglued one way or another when crap hits the fan.
A very smart man once said "dogs bark for two reasons, scared or bored" and he was dead right. Whatever layers go with that at it's base is one of those two.
Now as much as I adore Shadow and think she is awesome, she is a huge disappointment in so many ways. The way her genetics shook out is she has not enough biddability or focus to ever really learn, she is fearful and although she has huge drive in her case it makes her a hot mess. Nothing useful.
Sabi on the other hand was the epitome of what a good dog should be. She was smart, loyal, courageous. She was protective with great discernment. She adored kids, was solid with other animals, possessed all of the good and none of the bad. She stayed clear headed under pressure and was appropriately aggressive. And she proved it day in, day out for years.
She also had bad hips and DM. And she was WAY to big.
The siblings that I found were garbage.
If you love your dog, that's awesome. But I for one will never promote the downfall of the breed.
Sabis mom is offline  
post #7 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 11:39 AM Thread Starter
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,255
Everyone knows Lyka is a hot mess, and the poster child for why BYB are crap. She’s come a long long way from when I got her. But she will never be stable, and I’ll never let my guard down with her outside the home.

Crios I know for a fact came from a BYB. I steered many people away from this breeder. They were intentionally breeding and promoting Shepski’s, and stated that their breed canceled out GSD’s typical aggression with the playfulness of a Husky. They did zero heath testing, and I can pretty much tell the “sire” they were saying was bred to their bitch was NOT the sire, but likely the son of the dam. They were crap BYB looking for an easy dollar.

Both my rescues are poster children for why BYB’s are shunned. Horrible nerves, health problems, behavior problems, Crios is nonstop go go go, and we have to force him to relax. DH didn’t want to deal with another rescue because of this. So we started looking at breeders.

While looking for a breeder when DH insisted on a pup, we did a ton of research. We landed with the breeder we got Seiran from because the dam and sire were incredibly impressive. They were bullet proof on the farm, and in the home. The breeder used to title their dogs, but are retired, and breed for the love of the breed. They do have a titled breeding pair, but we chose to go with the non titled litter, because we already have one with no off switch, that needs to be worked and worked and worked. The breeder was honest with us, and said the titled pairs offspring showed more aggression and drive (still with stable temperaments) than the non titled pair, and since we had two unstable dogs in the home, the titled litters would be much more prone to picking up negative behaviors from my crap bred BYB dogs. The pair we went with has titled lineage, they just didn’t title the parents because they retired, and wanted to raise the two as companions, with enough drive to work on the farm, but not enough to be hyper focused and full of drive. We watch many many videos of the pair we went with. We watched videos of their offspring that were titled. And when we knew for sure they would be our too choice of breeder, we flew to Washington and stayed a week, going to their place everyday and watching the dogs. They let us “help” with the farm work, so we could see how the dogs worked along side them. All 4 were amazingly obedient, but the pair we went with were more gentle (for lack of a better word) than the titled pair. They bred one last litter (after we got Seiran) from the titled pair, and then retired them and no longer breed the pair. Or cross bred with the other two.

We waited a little over a year for the litter, and I did do some looking around at other breeders while waiting, and I just kept being pulled back to our original breeder. We spent $1100 on Seiran, and once spayed, will get back $300 of that. We will still show proof of spay, but have no interest in getting money back. We feel like we got way more for our money than we could have ever hoped for.

These are the ethical breeders I mean. They skip one or two heat cycles, and the now retired pair had 4 litters before being retired. The pair we went with has had 3 litters (including the one we got Seiran from) and will be retired from breeding after one more litter. They do full health testing, and their dogs are awesome poster children for what a good, stable GSD should be. Seiran is so easy it’s almost like she requires no training. I realize it’s just because my two current monsters are just that, monsters who are a constant pain in the butt and need constant training and/or management.

I put Seiran in a place, and actually forgot I had done it. An hour later, she was still in place, and just eagerly watching what was happening around her. I felt horrible, she didn’t mind one bit.
car2ner likes this.
Jchrest is offline  
post #8 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 01:33 PM
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,418
Personally, I like the clear distinction between the lines. The breeding of any pure bred dog is about maintaining what the breed is supposed to be. Keep whats good about both of them now, and I think the German Shepherd benefits from it. I think that's whats unique about them, its not one or the other. You already have both, work with it.

Doc

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steve Strom is offline  
post #9 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 01:58 PM
Moderator
 
dogfaeries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Moore, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,362
When you go to a breederís place to see their dogs, they are on their home turf. I donít think thatís enough, at least for me. I want to know they can handle themselves sanely out and about. I want to know that genetically my dog is not a fruitcake. That they are environmentally sound. That I can turn them loose in a pile of kids. I donít want a spooky dog. I donít want a dog that barks at strangers when we are on a walk. I donít want a dog thatíll go after a kid. I havenít had to train those behaviors out of my dogs, because they werenít there in the first place.

Mine happen to be show dogs, that are dropped into crazy noisy chaotic environments and not only handle it, but enjoy it. Iíve been around many of their close relatives at dog shows, at herding events, at obedience trials. I see how they handle it. Carly has a daughter that is a SAR dog. My vet is always trying to get me to do something with Carly, like being in the program where kids read to dogs at the library, or being a therapy dog at childrenís hospital now that sheís missing an eye. Heís in love with that dog, which I think is sweet.

Iím rambling.

~ Diane ~

CARLY ......... Ch. Lauremi's No Reservations (AKC GCh pointed, HIC)
SCARLET ..... Lauremi's Almost Wasn't (AKC pointed)
and absent friends... SAGE ~ Lauremi's Whim Z v Jakmar ~ AKC major ptd, HIC ~ 2010-2015
dogfaeries is online now  
post #10 of 66 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 02:35 PM Thread Starter
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,255
I completely get that, if that is what I intended to do with my dog, I would go to those kind of breeders. But I’m not interested in any of that. I mainly stay at home, and if I do go somewhere (grocery shopping), I wouldn’t take the dogs anyway.

Lyka I would not trust in public. Certainly not in pet store! But I was okay with that, and the management needed with her, because I am mainly at home. When I wanted to take her hiking, it wasn’t a big deal if she saw another dog, she would perk up, but that’s it. Crios we do take into pet stores, tractor and feed stores, Lowe’s, Home Depot, basically any pet friendly place. He’s great socially. And he loves it. We will do the same with Seiran also. Today will actually be her first time in the pet store because it’s the first time we’ve gone when she’s been fully vaccinated.

Once we move back to CA, she will only be at the farm, or at the feed store. Left at home for grocery shopping.

I guess all I’m trying to say are there are ethical breeders out there that breed to standard, are very knowledgeable about the breed, and have titled dogs in the past, been in the fray of all aspects of the breed, but no longer work their dogs in sport.
Jchrest is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome