Bothering a dog while it is eating: controversy - Page 21 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #201 of 222 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 03:00 AM
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It comes from the mindset that in wolf packs the alpha eats first and can interrupt a subordinates meal whenever it feel like.
You are kidding right, or have you never observed wolves? In a wolf pack the alpha male allows everyone to eat, and treats all members with respect. It's easy to find videos where the alpha feeds both puppies and the elderly of the pack!

He can, as you can, interrupt a lower ranking wolf's meal...but he very very rarely does, and only for a good reason!

Wolves would not follow a tyrant leader...nor do people for very long LOL!
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post #202 of 222 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 05:30 AM
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A lot of the old wolf-research was done by studying wolves in captivity. You have to expect wolves stuck in/perhaps born in a very limited enclosure would develop some strange (to wolves) habits. For one thing, there may not be a true-alpha in a pack generated and manipulated by humans. Food is not hunted for, it is provided, thus the main hobby/job of the wolves is not there.

So, yeah, maybe a bored, wanna-be-alpha wolf found it entertaining to piss on a lower ranking wolf while it is eating. Kind of what happens when humans stick their big egos into the lives of animals. Kind of like when humans think animals should share their toys and bones.
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post #203 of 222 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 08:49 AM
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I am totally confused, i thought we were talking of domestic dogs that live with other domesticated dogs and/or people. Not wild wolves.

I ask myself now, why do i train my dogs at all and not let them just do as a wild wolf?

Yesterday my puppy was trying her best to get the food that sticks around the side of her bow, i (like a gangster) stuck my hand in her bowl, scraped the food from the side and i left with my hand and a wag of a tail.
Yep. If i want wolf behavior I'll adopt a wolf.
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post #204 of 222 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 09:44 AM
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Yesterday my puppy was trying her best to get the food that sticks around the side of her bow, i (like a gangster) stuck my hand in her bowl, scraped the food from the side and i left with my hand and a wag of a tail.



My current GSD is the same......maybe even more exaggerated.


When we are on the road in the motor home her food bowl is not against a wall like it is at home......so maybe she doesn't have any leverage to turn it or she's just stupid...or maybe lazy...who knows? But it is interesting behavior.......almost a lazy reliance of sorts



What she does when she gets close to the end of her meal on the road....she'll stop eating.......stare at one or both of us.....and patiently wait for her bowl to be spun 180 degrees, so she can finish the last bits.....and as you say this is all done with " a wag of a tail.".


Overall, this "controversy" is probably unique to both the specific dog and individual. Even though I can do whatever I choose with my dog's food....I would never suggest anybody else do the same as I do with my dog when it comes to her food.........just as I would never mess with some other person's dog and their food.


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post #205 of 222 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by tim_s_adams View Post
You are kidding right, or have you never observed wolves? In a wolf pack the alpha male allows everyone to eat, and treats all members with respect. It's easy to find videos where the alpha feeds both puppies and the elderly of the pack!

He can, as you can, interrupt a lower ranking wolf's meal...but he very very rarely does, and only for a good reason!

Wolves would not follow a tyrant leader...nor do people for very long LOL!
You do understand i was telling her where the mindset comes from not that i subscribe to it.
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post #206 of 222 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by hoytn View Post
It comes from the mindset that in wolf packs the alpha eats first and can interrupt a subordinates meal whenever it feel like.
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Originally Posted by Dionne2u View Post
I am totally confused, i thought we were talking of domestic dogs that live with other domesticated dogs and/or people. Not wild wolves.

I ask myself now, why do i train my dogs at all and not let them just do as a wild wolf?

Yesterday my puppy was trying her best to get the food that sticks around the side of her bow, i (like a gangster) stuck my hand in her bowl, scraped the food from the side and i left with my hand and a wag of a tail.
Yep. If i want wolf behavior I'll adopt a wolf.
In case you were wondering, one of the I-mess-with-my-dog's-food folks brought up the wolves, and we on the other side were only giving our opinion on that matter. These conversations sometimes veer toward what dogs do naturally in the wild, because some behavior is instinctive, and if we are going to train that behavior it makes sense to know where it comes from.

I think a lot of the folks that ascribe to messing with their dogs food, want to ensure that their dogs are safe if a child comes near them when they are eating. And that is what a responsible dog owner should do, that is, ensure that they are safe. But the question is whether what they are doing by fussing with the food dish while the dog is eating is making children more safe or endangering them.

My feeling about this is that the dog is either pre-disposed to be food aggressive, or not. If we build food drive in such a dog by making them work for it, using it as a reward to the extreme, or play this give/take away/give game with them, then we are much more likely to create an issue, that may have never reared its ugly head. And thus children are more endangered.

A dog that is not pre-disposed to food aggression will not be bothered by the games and will not be a danger to children around their food dish.

Another point is that, you can extinguish guarding behaviors with such training, but only for you. Unless you are doing with your child right there and with its hand in the food dish too. The dog who is truly food aggressive and knows that YOU will take it if you want to, if that dog has chosen to trust and follow you, You get a pass around the food dish. But you dallying with it, makes him even more sensitive about it, and any that he hasn't chosen to follow may be more at risk because of the heightened anxiety we would be creating.

A responsible dog owner who has guests over and does not know how the dog will act about his food dish, should put the food dish up, or feed the dog where people will not be. Eliminate the possibility of food-related-injury. If you are sharing a meal with your guests, put the dog up. That isn't a problem, and guests (many of them) will appreciate that. [Note to self and other dog-crazy individuals: Not everyone loves your dog the way you do.]

I have kennel dogs and many of them live in a kennel with another dog or dogs. Feeding time is the highlight of their day for the most part, and they jump up and down and bark and get really, really excited.

When my sister's small children, who come over 2-3 times a year, were out there feeding the dogs, they had no problems putting their hand right into the food dish while the dog was eating. Not sure why she did that, I think to move the dish over for some reason. But because my dogs were not conditioned to think that someone was going to get their food if they did not guard it, there was no issue. Maybe they are just not pre-disposed to food aggression.

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post #207 of 222 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by tim_s_adams View Post
You are kidding right, or have you never observed wolves? In a wolf pack the alpha male allows everyone to eat, and treats all members with respect. It's easy to find videos where the alpha feeds both puppies and the elderly of the pack!

He can, as you can, interrupt a lower ranking wolf's meal...but he very very rarely does, and only for a good reason!

Wolves would not follow a tyrant leader...nor do people for very long LOL!
Tim, I need to make just a small correction here. In the wild wolf packs are actually ruled by an alpha female. Before everyone gets all naughty about that let me explain. It is the female who makes the decisions. Where the den site is, and who her mate is are her decision. In essence the male of the alpha pair is her hired muscle. And it is most often, within the pack, the female who teaches and reprimands. Not the male. It is she who shows displeasure at behaviors not in line with solid pack structure and while the male may need to be her enforcer it is she who rules. An alpha male is only ever subordinate to his mate.
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post #208 of 222 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoytn View Post
It comes from the mindset that in wolf packs the alpha eats first and can interrupt a subordinates meal whenever it feel like.
In case you were wondering, one of the I-mess-with-my-dog's-food folks brought up the wolves, and we on the other side were only giving our opinion on that matter. .... If we build food drive in such a dog by making them work for it, using it as a reward to the extreme, or play this give/take away/give game with them
I really wasn't wondering, it was evident where it was coming from. I don't need to show who's Alpha, and don't care. I want a family dog, a dog that can work, play, live in society, with society. I train my dogs to be therapy and service dogs not wolves. Been training for 26+ years now with much success.

Now where does taking the dogs food away and giving it back come in? Totally confused with that statement. I would not suggest anyone do that as a training method, there have been times i needed to add something in their food and taken the bowl away to add it but never for training and i expect not to be growled at nor any other aggressive sign when i need to do such.
Ive brought dogs home and puppies that were very territorial with their food around animals and people, they realize quickly there is no need to be and the behavior is not appropriate. I can come up to a feed bowl and if I choose, stick my hand in it or a child can stick their hand in it with no worries. My nephew even eats out of their boy ha! With no issues.

Now what i do wonder and does concern me (being you wanted to clarify),is not the sticking of a hand in a food bowl, or the wolf/dog comments. No, my wonderment and concern is sticking a dog in a kennel where it's main joy in life is food. How many wolves exactly prefer that experience? How many dogs? Yeah give me a hand in my bowl any day verses being cooped up in a kennel all day.
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post #209 of 222 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 02:29 PM
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the female who teaches and reprimands. Not the male. It is she who shows displeasure at behaviors not in line with solid pack structure and while the male may need to be her enforcer it is she who rules. An alpha male is only ever subordinate to his mate.



I hope my wife doesn't read this........ uh oh......gotta go and hide....here she comes......




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post #210 of 222 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 02:34 PM
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the female who teaches and reprimands. Not the male. It is she who shows displeasure at behaviors not in line with solid pack structure and while the male may need to be her enforcer it is she who rules. An alpha male is only ever subordinate to his mate.[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/Germanshepherds_2016/smilies/tango_face_devil.png[/IMG]



I hope my wife doesn't read this........ uh oh......gotta go and hide....here she comes......




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