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Attacking a stranger

8K views 73 replies 16 participants last post by  selzer 
#1 ·
This is what happened. And it happened 2x now. The same lady. The same street. Same time of the day. I’m just going to describe this morning because the first time was exactly the same except Ava’s collar didn’t snap open.

Ava is a bit over 2 years now, a vey cautious female dog with a little bit of a prey drive. She is good with children. Gets excited over some telephone poles but getting better and better at ignoring them. Every morning we go outside to our side walk for a bathroom break. Right when we wake up. Our side walk is really narrow with no access to the street. On one side of the side walk are house and on the other side is a hill.

This poor lady wearing a big winter jacket and a backpack approached us. Ava didn’t like it. In the middle of pooping she started growling at her. As I corrected her the collar snapped open. She circled the lady. Still barking with hackles up trying to approach her slowly. The lady started talking to her and leaned towards Ava. Ava back off and barked some more eventually easing off but still kept barking.

In the meantime I’m also talking to this lady and she is telling me I should watch dog whisperer which I clearly need after this.

Then Ava thought she was gonna have a jolly old time and run on the hill with cars going on top. I did manage to get her down and eventually to the house. But you could tell Ava was in the mischief mood. She is great on leash. Great with kids. But when that leash snapped on it was like FREEDOM!

The fist episode happened probably a close to a month ago. The only difference was Ava went for the backpack but I corrected her with the leash.

This was a terrible experience and I was for the first time frightened. When it first happened I was just plainly pissed off. But now I’m disappointed because I really wouldn’t except that. She’s been socialized since day one. Like I mentioned earlier she is good with everyone. Generally gentle. Any insight and help would be appreciated. Thank you.


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#2 ·
Since you know you have a dog that's bothered by things you would hope she wasn't, but she is, a better collar and paying attention enough to use space and distance to avoid things like this while you work on her obedience. Leave it, sit, down, and recall will handle most things. Hopefully you get to the point space and distance won't be important.
 
#4 ·
Of course it's not hopeless!The big coat and backpack looks ominous to Ava and it scares her so she does the best she knows how to deal with it.A solid recall achieved after lots of repetition on a long line and then in a safe fenced area is what's needed.She'll learn the best and safest thing to do is to come back to you.
 
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#7 ·
I didn't have as dramatic as experience but Hudson's prong clasp came open on it's inaugural night (not a great way to start out with the prong, eh?) and my stomach fell to my feet. I gave a calm "here" - knowing full well at 8 months old he may give me the finger with his eyes and bolt, but he begrudgingly came right to me even with a boxer standing feet away (I almost cried with happiness). From then on I clip his prong to his flat collar with an extremely sturdy nylon clip and I'm still nervous. I am so sorry that happened to you!

^^meaningless addition to this thread LOL but definitely sympathize!
 
#9 ·
I didn't have as dramatic as experience but Hudson's prong clasp came open on it's inaugural night (not a great way to start out with the prong, eh?) and my stomach fell to my feet. I gave a calm "here" - knowing full well at 8 months old he may give me the finger with his eyes and bolt, but he begrudgingly came right to me even with a boxer standing feet away (I almost cried with happiness). From then on I clip his prong to his flat collar with an extremely sturdy nylon clip and I'm still nervous. I am so sorry that happened to you!



^^meaningless addition to this thread LOL but definitely sympathize!


That is such a good idea. If one fails the other is still on! Brilliant.


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#13 ·
We got her when she was 8-9wks. And socialized her right off. Same with the breeder. She was from the get go more timid than the other pups in the litter. The breeder said that living in the city will help her get out of her shell and it really did. She used to be scared of everything but given a chance she’d hide and with my reassurance she’d go and explore. Even at the park with other dogs if insure she’d stay close to me. She never fights with other dogs. She a dog wants her stick or toy she lets go.


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#10 ·
I've never had my prong fail but from day one I used it with a back up. Leerburg sells a dominant dog collar which is like a choke collar made of nylon. I get my stuff with brass hardware as I'm told stainless has a tendency to crack. Then I use a short tab with snaps on both ends to connect it all. The leash snaps to the ring on the prong, one snap from the tab snaps to the ring on the dominant dog collar, the second snap on the tab clips to the ring on the snap at the base of the leash. It gives me a back up for a prong snapping off or if the snap on the leash failed at the clasp. My trainer recommended this and that's who I bought the tab with two clasps from. I haven't found one online.

The idea of the leash with two separate clasps sounds good too.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Dogs are often leery of anyone carrying something. My puppy, who loves kids, barked at a couple kids at the lake a couple months ago because they were carrying car tire inner tubes on their shoulders. Once they removed the tubes and she saw that they were kids she stopped. But it's likely that the combination of the heavy coat and the backpack made your dog suspicious. It's just something you have to be aware of and manage. In this particular case it's unfortunate that the collar broke, but as @Steve Strom mentioned already just continue to work on obedience so that she'll recall dependably, and continue to let her see things. IMHO the more people and places and situations your dog sees (desensitization) the better she'll understand what is and is not a threat. I wouldn't read too much into these two events, as it sounds like the lady that was approaching you and your dog was not exactly acting sensibly, and it occurred in relatively tight quarters, so your dog got spooked a bit. If it's happening with lots of different people in different places, you may have an issue to focus on. But if, as you said, it was the same lady in the same restricted area, No harm no foul. Just continue to work on obedience and let this go...
 
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#18 ·
Thank you. Knowing Ava what you said and wolfie dog makes complete sense. That’s how interpreted the situation as well. With Ava and Phoenix being quite juvenile still, sometimes they make quite the duo when walked together. But we are working on it. I’m more often walking them separately until they mature a little more. Phoenix is almost a year but alone seems calmer than Ava ever was. Both are a pleasure to walk separately. Thank you for your input. I never thought I’d have this moment where I’d think OMG I’m failing my dog.


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#19 ·
Well as they tend to say "I was not there." So that being said ... this whole scenario, did not have to happen. Wrong tool and "Poor Choices" lead to this fiasco. It's pretty much a violation of all my "Bubble Dog Protocols???" I would label your dog at best "unpredictable around people??" If one has to pick how the dog responds to given, "Strangers" in public ... I define that as "unpredictable??" That is all "I" would need to know. :)

But back on point, it sounds like you saw the "stranger" approaching and felt pretty sure that "hmm, this may be an issue???" And "apparently" you were correct! But from there it all went sideways??? The "prong" was your first resort and when it failed at an inopportune time, the crap went down as it were. :surprise:

Wrong tool, wrong approach, in my "opinion" a better approach would have been to step in front of your dog! And tell said "Stranger to Stay Back!" The failure of the "prong" should not have been a factor???

And then came part two ie now the dog is free and has no recall??? Two years and no recall??? Well that is a problem but still, I'll not harp on it, because, well I'm a Boxer guy! And with those dogs, I felt that recall took to much "processing power!" Recall, meant stop doing whatever it is your doing, turn around and return to owner??? They move to fast and in "Crap Going Down Situations" I don't have time for there "foolishness!" So I default to a solid "Stay and then a Down," if required?? That stops the forward motion first and then gives them time to "think!" And then I will recall or go to them, if we are still working on a solid recall.

It's just a set of "different choices" and I would lose the "Prong Collar." A "Correction Based" approach (first) while it can be done by "Pro's" and yes with a "Prong Collar" on this dog (nother tangent.) But it would be a difficult approach for most average owners??? I prefer to "KISS" by first showing a dog how I expect them to behave in given situations. A solid "Stay and do nothing," should work fine for most, lesse skilled owners, in my "opinion." :)
 
#21 ·
Well as they tend to say "I was not there." So that being said ... this whole scenario, did not have to happen. Wrong tool and "Poor Choices" lead to this fiasco. It's pretty much a violation of all my "Bubble Dog Protocols???" I would label your dog at best "unpredictable around people??" If one has to pick how the dog responds to given, "Strangers" in public ... I define that as "unpredictable??" That is all "I" would need to know. :)



But back on point, it sounds like you saw the "stranger" approaching and felt pretty sure that "hmm, this may be an issue???" And "apparently" you were correct! But from there it all went sideways??? The "prong" was your first resort and when it failed at an inopportune time, the crap went down as it were. :surprise:



Wrong tool, wrong approach, in my "opinion" a better approach would have been to step in front of your dog! And tell said "Stranger to Stay Back!" The failure of the "prong" should not have been a factor???



And then came part two ie now the dog is free and has no recall??? Two years and no recall??? Well that is a problem but still, I'll not harp on it, because, well I'm a Boxer guy! And with those dogs, I felt that recall took to much "processing power!" Recall, meant stop doing whatever it is your doing, turn around and return to owner??? They move to fast and in "Crap Going Down Situations" I don't have time for there "foolishness!" So I default to a solid "Stay and then a Down," if required?? That stops the forward motion first and then gives them time to "think!" And then I will recall or go to them, if we are still working on a solid recall.



It's just a set of "different choices" and I would lose the "Prong Collar." A "Correction Based" approach (first) while it can be done by "Pro's" and yes with a "Prong Collar" on this dog (nother tangent.) But it would be a difficult approach for most average owners??? I prefer to "KISS" by first showing a dog how I expect them to behave in given situations. A solid "Stay and do nothing," should work fine for most, lesse skilled owners, in my "opinion." :)


Yes. These would be great points if Ava wasn’t well socialized and displayed this behaviour on regular basis. She is a dog that travelled through out NA. She is a downtown dog that sits at Starbucks, plays with kids and is great at dog park. Spends no less than 2 hours in a day on workouts and socializing. She never displayed any aggression since or before and in between these 2 instances.

The collar is definitely faulty and getting that fixed. Which collar would you recommend? Phoenix is on prong as well but it’s a different one.

On the recall note, agreed. When she wants to be terrible she is. She is a terrible brat when she knows Im irritated with her. Her recall is good overall. She becomes deaf in a situation like with the lady or used to be at the off leash dog park when she knew she was going home. We are working on it. Her crazy playful kicks in and she is done. No one is perfect I guess.

I definitely should have been more assertive towards this lady who insisted despite growling to keep moving towards us. And unfortunately the area I was in called for me to make her stop. I’m very attentive to the moods of my dogs and prevent any situation from escalating. Except the 2 times.

Thank you for your input.


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#20 ·
I would strongly advise OP or anybody else against giving orders to strangers in public areas as to what they can and cannot do. People are not obligated to acquiesce to your requests and most likely many will not and you have no right to expect them to. Trying to force that issue is something that could escalate real fast and turn quite ugly with the wrong person, even possibly get the law involved and not on your side, especially if your dog is aggressing. Most laws call for dogs to be under control in addition to being leashed. If you have a problem dog, don't try to control the environment, you can't. Stay focused on controlling your dog and implement whatever means necessary to ensure the safety of the public as well as your dog until you can get your dog trained.
 
#22 ·
OH ... the "Casper Milktoast" approach to dogs with "people issues???" Thanks for pointing out to me why when I first had my "Troubles with Rocky" I figured out how to best deal with it on my own. And it worked out fine ... "Thank You Very Much." :)

So I'll just ignore your broad assumptions and speak for "myself!" My dogs are not other peoples personnel property! If I body block someone's access to my dog, that usually sends a pretty clear hands of signal and I need not say a word! But if that is just to much for some??? Then most likely they are incompatible, as a "leader" for that dog so yeah "find a Trainer or Rehome the dog!"

But fo for me and Rocky, (and dog's under my care) NO means freaking NO! I don't know how it is where you are?? But where I live, if one steps in front of there and blocks access to them, (non verbal communication) that is "Good Enough" for most people?? And I would happily explain the situation, if I was in a "Mood to do so!" And since I had to switch from, "Please do" to my I pet to "NO he's in training" and he was (he was being trained not to bite the crap out of strangers) but no one ever asked ... trained to do what???

But rest assured if I said, "NO" to may I pet, it meant freaking "NO!" I would have Luv'd to see someone try and get access to my dog "over my objection???" As if that is gonna happen??? So sure some stranger is always free, to call the freaking cops if they chose??? And my dog and I would wait quietly, for them to arrive and I will happy explain my part of the situation. And that "Strange,r" will still not have access to my freaking dog while we "Wait!"

Others or of course as always, free to do as they see fit. But having a freaking spine is also a part of "Bubble Dog" ownership. I didn't think that needed to be spelled out??? So my bad I suppose???
 
#23 ·
I don't know what you are talking about. I simply advised OP and whoever else that is reading that they have a responsibility to ensure the safety of others from their dogs by managing, controlling, and training their dogs.

OP stated "Our side walk is really narrow with no access to the street. On one side of the side walk are house and on the other side is a hill." OP can correct me for assuming that since other people use this that it is a public walk. OP has no right to block or control it or to deny other people access especially because they have a dog that has aggression or control issues. It is OP's responsibility to clear the way and permit egress, not the other way around.

If somebody tried to deny me public access because they can't control their dog and won't make safe passage, I most certainly would be calling the authorities to report before some innocent person gets hurt.
 
#24 · (Edited)
" Oh well we are at an impasse??? Because I have "apparently" no ideal what you are talking about either??? But hey I'll play alone. :)

In my head, I pictured "no blocking off access" to a public sidewalk??? I assumed the dog was off to the side on whatever free space was available??? Since If the dog were taking a "dump on" the public sidewalk, most people around where I live ... would gladly step aside???

But hey, if being impeded in such a matter that "someone wants to call, the cops" while I cleaned up my dogs messed?? I'd happily lend them my phone if required and wait ... and they are still ... not laying hands on my freaking dog! >:)
 
#35 ·
Was this a nylon snap, or a metal snap, or was it a prong snapped open?

For puppies I like an adjustable martingale, meaning that they have the nylon quick-release snap thingy.
For adults I prefer a buckle collar for tags, and a fixed leather martingale. So far I haven't had any failures on either type of martingale. But, everything has a life.

It's kind of embarrassing, but no one got hurt, your dog was a little weenie, but so what? And don't listen to the lady's Cesar advice. Just smile and nod and say, "Yeah, I should do that." Nothing like agreeing with someone to shut them up.
 
#36 ·
It was an easy release prong. But it wasn’t as good as the one Phoenix has. It has this small clasp and I think when it went thru the loop when I was correcting her it snapped open. I’ll look into what you suggested. I’ve been walking them separately now since the incident because I have one prong collar and because I truly believe it’s the two of them going thru some juvenile behaviours. At home they are great. And separately they are awesome.

I apologized to the woman and I was not confrontational because I could just imagine how she felt. But I also was petrified. I wouldn’t want to lose my dog because of MY mistake.

Thank you.


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#38 ·
It seems funny to me that both @Chip18 and @MineAreWorkingline are saying the same thing in different ways...yet disagreeing...

Get a better collar with some back up, as was mentioned earlier, then better manage your dog knowing this stuff can set her off. Keep working on on training, solid recall, paying attention to you when distractions are present, and it'll work itself out. You're fine, just stay alert to situations that can cause your dog to lose it (i.e. high stress situations for her).

Done!

And lighten up, she'll be fine, and so will you!
 
#41 ·
If your dog is accustomed to a prong, you aren't going to get the response that I get from a martingale. A martingale is basically a prong without prongs -- not a correction collar. But it is safer than a lot of collars because, if you fit it properly, the dog cannot slip the collar, and it tightens around the neck like a prong, and not putting pressure all in the front or wherever.

Evenso, it works great for me, and I can put them on dogs trained with prongs and in no time they are responding fine with them for me, but then I have a lot of experience training, and I do not use prongs.

Your situation is what I see as a negative for prongs. I have a girl that is a little over 2 years old. She has never had a prong collar on. I know exactly what she will do and could manage this situation with her, with no collar at all. I think too many people have too much success with training early on with a prong collar that the dog is basically where they want it so long as the collar is on the dog. So training basically goes nowhere. But remove the collar from the scenario, and now you have a dog you can't manage.

I took Quinn (my 2 year old) out to PA to play with a dog who will soon be 1. Their trainer was there, and my bitch was the distraction. We let the dogs loose to run around, and then I called, and my girl came right back to me -- HUGE distraction. But she came right back.

Which brings me to the second problem with prongs. When your dog is used to the corrective action of the prong, it isn't necessarily easy to get them to respond to you when you don't have the prong backing you up. People suggest their dog is blowing them off. Well, yes. Perhaps they are. You don't have your I-mean-business-collar on them, and they don't necessarily think they need to listen.

I want to tell you to ditch the prongs and build a training bond with your dog. But that isn't fair either, really. People can build a bond with prongs, if they follow the rest of the training fundamentals: timing -- positive and negative communication, not repeating yourself, following through, consistency, and so forth. I think the prongs let us be sloppy. It's great for beginners because the dog self-corrects when walking, and the negative marker is clear. Unfortunaltely, without the rest of the training, the dog isn't learning to trust you and to obey you without the collar. And then you have a 2 year old dog that isn't coming when called, and doesn't trust you to protect her.

I am not dissing you. Because you are probably doing great for someone who is working their first or second dog, or GSD, whatever. I am kind of dragging on the use of prong collars and perhaps it isn't really helpful in your thread.

I have held the belief (that this forum does not agree with) that if you cannot control the dog without using a prong collar, then you shouldn't own the dog. Part of the reason is what happened here. The prong opens and you have a naked dog that can get run over by a car, or might actually nip or bite a lady, and as you said, it might not be up to you anymore whether your dog lives or dies.

I guess what I would suggest is ditching that quick-release prong, it's dangerous. Use the other one, but don't stop there. Go back to classes, and start really working with some of the other techniques. Work on training new things. Use some treats. Mix it up. Practice. Play a game with your dog without using your recall command word. Just her name, and give her awesome party-praise and a treat when she comes to you fast. Give her matter of fact praise for acceptable response, maybe a treat. Mediocre praise for a slow response. Try to get that response time to be 90-100% lightning fast. But work it up. Take your time and slowly increase the expectation for the type of praise and treat. Recall is a life-skill. It is. You know it. You dodged a bullet. Take this as a wake-up call.

Training should be 95% fun, games, success, praise, and 5% or less corrections. Build a bond where you dog wants to do what you want her to do, where she is happy, and engaged, and just waiting for you to tell her the next thing. Then, you can throw your prong collar in the trash.
 
#43 ·
Thank you thank you thank you. This is exactly what I needed. Perfect!!! I totally agree and I know exactly my mistakes now as well. When I train I think I accommodate Ava way too much. Meaning I expect less than I should for example when she is slow to respond I praise way too much. And she is a clever girl with no need to please. I did start a week ago with getting her more excited about training and while we train. Going shopping tomorrow for a martingale. Totally makes sense. Things just snapped back into place in my brain. Thank you again.


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#49 ·
I see what MAWL is saying. There is a huge difference between training your dog to be tolerant of humans, and telling humans to stay back. Especially, if we are where humans are allowed to be -- public thoroughfare. One takes responsibility for themselves and their dog's actions, the other shirks responsibility and expects the world to move over to accomodate their dog's "issues."

Not sure how that works here. But responsible dog ownership should be about containment and safety and providing for a dog's physical, mental, veterinary care, and less about the state of their reproductive system. But it is what it is. We have huge drives to alter everything with four legs, and very little encouragement to actually work with and train a dog. It is almost like training and containing a dog is considered cruel or a necessary evil, when nothing is further from the truth. In today's atmostphere, if you have a little dog that runs around under the table and bites people while they are eating, but is altered, then you are an awesome pet owner. If you have a dog that will drop on a dime if you tell him so, even if he is chasing a rabbit or deer, then you are somehow nasty. And if that dog still has testicles, then you are a fiend.

But I think I am digressing here.
 
#51 ·
I see what MAWL is saying. There is a huge difference between training your dog to be tolerant of humans, and telling humans to stay back. Especially, if we are where humans are allowed to be -- public thoroughfare. One takes responsibility for themselves and their dog's actions, the other shirks responsibility and expects the world to move over to accomodate their dog's "issues."
Thank you!
 
#54 ·
@ Chip People are allowed to give out advice, even if it does not agree with that of others. It is a public forum. Nobody should be cyber bullied into silence because their advice differs from that of others.

I find it very rude and insulting to be accused of making things up because I gave sound advice that would keep OP out of legal trouble.

Stop making this about you.
 
#56 ·
@ Chip People are allowed to give out advice, even if it does not agree with that of others. It is a public forum. Nobody should be cyber bullied into silence because their advice differs from that of others.
Oh a new tactic?? OK then, I have no problem with "differences of opinion?? But I do have a problem with people making "assumptions" about how problem dog's behaved under my watch. They aren't out there barking/snarling/lunging and banging against there collar???

I should them what I want and yes, for awhile I will stop and body block as required and they "Nothing." Once they understand there is no issue here (with people) then, they get to stand beside me, and I will still stop 5 feet away and negotiation "my I Pet" if I feel the need, otherwise it's, "No I rather you did not." And my dogs do "NOTHING." It was my impression that you were implying they did something "otherwise??" If I was mistake ... then I stand corrected. :)



I find it very rude and insulting to be accused of making things up because I gave sound advice that would keep OP out of legal trouble.

Stop making this about you.
I think I explained (about me???) And my legal advise, would be "to keep people out of a people issues, dog's face and one won't have a need for "legal advise." :)
 
#55 ·
Obedience and desensitizing go hand in hand. You have to have the obedience in order to have the focus to work around what bothers the dog.

IMO, I would work on the obedience and relationship with the bond. I used "look at that" with my reactive dog to work her around other dogs (her trigger). But you have to teach the dogs the tools needed before you can work them around their triggers. Whatever tool you choose. I used a combination of behavior modification and corrections. NO! You will NOT behave this way! And yes, that was the right behavior! REWARD. It's a balance of timing with a fair correction and reward for the behavior I wanted.

Put the high value on interacting with you. Put a solid recall, down, sit, whatever tool you need in order to have the control in bad situations. Then, as MAWL suggested, go out and work her at a distance to the things that she's reactive too.

Isolating a dog from triggers is exhausting. It's a constant struggle to be on guard and keep triggers away. You can't control everyone and everything around you but you can control what you teach your dog.
 
#58 ·
If you stick with this A&P, you'll be fine. I've never used an actual look at that or any of the other techniques like it, but what I do thats pretty much the same thing, I don't try to convince them to not look at something and stare at me. Its just a matter of using a little distance. I find it harder to make them believe that dog over there is no big deal, then letting them figure it out for themselves. Or that woman from your first post.

As an aside, this isn't a whole lot different then anything else in life. If you go out with a chip on your shoulder, looking at everything as a confrontation, you're going to find them.
 
#61 ·
I should mention that both dogs respond really good to my whistle. They both come from wherever they are when I recall them. They stay within my vicinity all the time. I taught Ava to keep an eye on me all the time. So there is no sneaking away from her. Problem now is putting her on the leash.


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