Question on my puppy's food.. - Page 2 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 02-28-2019, 02:04 PM
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I'm echoing what others say: 1)that if RC works for your dog, then don't change. I used RCGSD (mixed it with TOTW Pacific) for my previous one because it was the only one he would eat and he had EPI so changing around was very difficult. While many consider it not a good food, I had no choice. But the good thing is it worked for him and he was able to live to almost 12yo on it. However, for the quality of food that it is, it's quite expensive at around 66 bucks per bag. 2)now I feed Victor for my current dog. Love the brand. Relatively cheaper for a better quality food. Good luck.
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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 11:08 AM
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Yes Mars owns RC and Pedigree but Im not sure your point? Its a business like any other brand and they are diversifying their portfolio to increase profits, nothing wrong with that. Any dog food company is in it to make money, thats the fact. You are wrong about your last statement. Royal Canin has multiple research and testing facilities that test the foods for safety and conduct feeding trials on dogs to see how the food is utilized in regards to digestion, palatability, and disease prevention. You are also wrong about the veterinary statement. Yes Mars owns Banfield, that is not connected to this conversation at all. Banfield is a vet office/hospital chain. What I said was that Royal Canin employs Veterinary Nutritionists and PHD Vet Nutritionist that formulate their diets properly. Most of these "holistic" and family owned companies do not have qualified individuals formulating their foods. They easily dupe people into believing marketing tactics to buy their foods because it appeals to humans. Also, if you are going to claim corn is the devil, provide data to back your statement in relation to K9s because there is plenty of data showing its safety. Royal Canin only uses organs for their by-products, please provide factual evidence showing that is not the case if you're going to make a statement like that.
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 02:49 PM
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I agree with Ken - if it works for your dog, stick with it. A lot of people are confused as to what is safe to feed right now. I'm personally feeding Muenster Milling brand to my two GSDs. If updated guidelines from the FDA with cardiologist recommendations come out, I'll follow them. I already have a dog with a heart condition and would like to do my best to prevent further damage to her or my other two.

@Colorado - as far as I know, it has been both with and without grain.

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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 03:44 PM
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mmags, have you read the sworn deposition testimony of a Mars employee about their ingredient sourcing and contamination that was leaked to Susan at TAPF and discussed in here? I think Moms posted a thread about it. You might want to read it before you go to the mat for this company -- maybe it won't matter to you, but you might want to get to know the publicly available details about their sourcing.

We've also posted links to company docs in the past about jobs in China with Mars Petfood division doing R&D and ingredient sourcing. In fact, here's one of those right now, in RC's Shanghai facility -- it leaves no doubt that RC sources raw materials in China:

One of the key responsibilities of this person working in Shanghai: "Find suppliers and Develop wet raw materials to fit Royal Canin needs in term of nutritional profile, product performance, Quality and Food Safety and price."

Again, you may not care about country of origin, but a lot of other consumers do. The melamine deaths of dogs fed many different brands of dog food a few years back were due to contamination of Chinese-sourced ingredients.

I will also say for what feels like the millionth time there is NO CAUSATIVE FINDING as to DCM yet -- just hypothesis and corelations. I know statistics are hard to understand for those who haven't taken a college-level math or science class in perhaps a long time -- but corelations are not proof of causation as to anything, no matter how often people post otherwise on social media. They are grounds for hypothesis and further research -- but attempting to announce that we should draw definitive conclusions at this point is simply not supported by the research yet. We have to wait for more science to be done before we know what's really going on. The last paper listed a range of potential variables that were suspected of being in play. For a while, the chatter was all about taurine. Then peas. Then potatoes. Now breed is in play too. So is the recommended feeding amount (esp. under-feeding to prevent weight gain in dogs with slow metabolisms). They're still trying to figure it out.
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Last edited by Magwart; 03-05-2019 at 03:55 PM.
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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 04:42 PM
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I want to follow up with the link to the taurine spreadsheet so that people can see how odd the raw data is -- marginal taurine results are showing up across the spectrum, and even occasional dogs fed Purina Pro Plan, Science Diet, and even few RC dogs have also now shown up with that blood result. Merrick (Purina-owned) is also now represented among low taurine results. We have a good discussion thread already about this, but I know people often don't want to wade through that long thread -- even though it's a good one.

In terms of reported DCM, there are a total of 4 dogs reported in this data set with DCM eating Fromm on this summary -- literally, four dogs. Acana has twenty-two. That's how scant the data here is -- researchers are extrapolating from a small pool, and that's why they not yet sure how (or even whether) food contributes to DCM. All they can say is that it "could be" a contributing factor.

Per the "about" tab: The researchers are also crystal clear that the data does not mean that any food listed caused DCM, or even that low taurine did. "The science is not to that point yet."

This might be the most useful view of all -- filtering out the Golden Retrievers, who are suspected of having a breed-related issue -- the only Fromm-related low-taurine result in this list is a Goldendoodle (i.e., a Golden mix) and a mixed breed feed 3 brands of food:

Note how the look of the data changes once you start controlling for other variables (like breed)? This is why drawing conclusions from early corelations is so challenging!

Last edited by Magwart; 03-05-2019 at 04:53 PM.
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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 10:23 AM
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I am aware that correlation does not equal causation. My problem with Fromm is that so many tout it as such a great food here but with no real data to back it up. Fromm admitted they do not have animal nutrition experts on staff, and their response to the taurine scare was to simply throw taurine into their foods, which was stated to not be the solution as the ingredients in formulations are stopping the absorption in the first place. Im pretty sure they're also the only dog food company that puts cheese in their foods. The point is greater than one company though. Many feed Pro Plan and RC with great success and long lives. I just dont see why if someone is feeding RC with good results that they should need to switch because some forum members tell them corn is bad and anything sourced overseas should be avoided. You have no clue if a dog fed RC their whole lives will be worse off than a dog fed something else.
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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 11:24 AM
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IMO RC uses cheap and crappy ingredients. You could do much better for the money. You don't need to be an animal nutritionist to see that.For example corn is a very cheap filler in dog food and often associated with food allergies in dogs. I would prefer to see healthy whole grains instead. I don't even feed my horses corn due to aflatoxins. RC uses alot of cheap and crappy ingredients IMO.

Here's the RC GSD puppy formula: Chicken By-Product Meal, Wheat Gluten, Corn, Oat Groats, Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Fat, Brewers Rice Flour, Brown Rice, Natural Flavors, Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Fish Oil

1) Chicken by-product meal is the first and ONLY meat related ingredient. (But where's the muscle meat??? I'm not 100% against by-product meal but only if there are sources of meat or meat meal in the top ingredients too. Dogs eat MEAT. They don't leave the meat and eat just the scrap parts)
What Are Animal By-Products?

Animal by-products are what’s left of a slaughtered animal after the parts intended for human consumption have been removed.
This meat processing scrap (known as offal) is considered inedible by many cultures and includes waste material like:
  • Feet
  • Backs
  • Livers
  • Lungs
  • Heads
  • Brains
  • Spleen
  • Frames
  • Kidneys
  • Stomachs
  • Intestines
  • Undeveloped eggs
Brewers' rice is the small milled fragments of rice kernels that have been separated from the larger kernels of milled rice. Brewers' rice is a processed rice product that is missing many of the nutrients contained in whole ground rice and brown rice thus reducing the quality. (why not use all brown rice? Because it is cheaper to throw in cheap crap like brewer's rice).
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-08-2019, 05:24 PM
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Here's one of "The Big Guy's" (Hill's) that make claims of safety checks of their pet foods, but it appears that they are not so truthful!

I wonder how many other big named companies are not truthful in all their claims????

"Hill’s Pet Nutrition is facing a slew of consumer lawsuits linked to their January 2019 excess Vitamin D recalls.

Filed on February 26, 2019 in the Central District of California, pet owners versus Hill’s Pet Nutrition; a class action lawsuit. The lawsuit states they bring this suit against Hill’s for (bold added):

their negligent, reckless, and/or intentional practice of misrepresenting, failing to test for, and failing to fully disclose the presence of toxic levels of Vitamin D in their Contaminated Dog Foods (defined below) and for selling Contaminated Dog Foods that are adulterated and do not conform to the labels, packaging, advertising, and statements throughout the United States.”
This lawsuit quotes several claims from the Hill’s website including these two (that the recall proved are not accurate claims):"

(g) “We conduct final safety checks daily on every Hill’s pet food
product to help ensure the safety of your pet’s food.”

(h) “Additionally, all finished products are physically inspected and tested for key nutrients prior to release to help ensure your pet gets a consistent product bag to bag.”

Above Article:

Truth About Pet Food presents things we would never know about! Susan Thixton's site is definitely an education on pet foods!

"no pet owner will know which pet food will contain rendered decomposing drowned animals from Hurricane Florence."

"Decomposing animal tissue in ANY food (human food or animal food) is a direct violation of the Federal Food Drug and Cosmetic Act.

Ҥ342. Adulterated food РA food shall be deemed to be adulterated-

(a) Poisonous, insanitary, etc., ingredients
(3) if it consists in whole or in part of any filthy, putrid, or decomposed substance”

Sad, but true…No one at FDA or North Carolina Department of Agriculture (or any Department of Agriculture) enforces this law."
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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 11:33 PM
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I wouldn't feed Royal Canin and I would not feed 35% protein to a puppy.

I am currently feeding Earthborn Holistic, but only the Meadowland Feast to puppies. You want the proper protein to fat ratio for puppies, as well as calcium/phosphorus ratio.

Yes, some foods have by products that you and I would not find tempting. But from the time that dogs were domesticated, they have eaten the parts of critters, you and I would not eat. No one here bats and eye about feeding bully sticks to dogs. But how many of us would eat bull penises. Dogs don't care, it's just meat to them. And organ meat like spleen and heart and lung and liver is all stuff that they not only will eat, but probably like, and when feeding raw, need both organ meat and muscle. Eggs, that's not a problem. Intestines -- ew. But again, with processing, it probably not as bad as it sounds.

Why I don't approve of Royal Canin is because the ingredient list does not merit the price tag. You can get a better list of ingredients from Kirkland, Victor, or Diamond Naturals, at a much better price per pound. So, you're being robbed feeding Royal Canin because they have a cool marketing scheme where they can make minor changes to the formula and call Rottweiler36 or GSD24, and you think that they have created a formula for your dog specifically. The answer is that in just German Shepherds, one 2 year old dog may not do nearly as well as another 2 year old dog on the same food.

It's just a racket. We get spoofed because the GSD on the label is cute. Or because the food says grain-free. Or the food says Holistic, or Organic, or made from free-range chickens, or we put prayer on our ingredient list, or we use special unicorn flatulence that improves health and obedience.
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by selzer View Post
I wouldn't feed Royal Canin and I would not feed 35% protein to a puppy.

I am currently feeding Earthborn Holistic, but only the Meadowland Feast to puppies. You want the proper protein to fat ratio for puppies, as well as calcium/phosphorus ratio.
Hmmm...question. I picked Victor Nutra Pro to start with my new puppy. It has 38% protein, 18% fat. An older Q & A I found on dog food advisor said you should aim for a 2 : 1 protein to fat ratio. In this case 38% seems fine? I do get that some dogs don't like that high of a fat content but that is a separate issue.

Am I missing something? Is there another reason you say you would not feed 35% protein to a puppy? After over thinking this and too much research I thought I had settled on a decent choice. Thanks.
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