home cooked diet for a 8 week puppy - Page 2 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-13-2018, 03:15 PM Thread Starter
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Just a quick update
For what it's worth, all my home cooked food plans have failed miserably
tried all sorts of proportions of rice/chicken/yogurt/supplements but the lil fella kept getting formless poo

Switched him back fully to a 2:1 proportion of RC and Farmina starter and that seems to be working well for now
Will give the whole home coked food gig another shot once he is 6 months or older
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 01:17 AM
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I think it's flat out nuts for someone without sufficient experience or knowledge to try to self-formulate home-cooked food for a puppy unless you're working with a nutritionist and/or using NRC spreadsheets tracking micronutrients. It's way to easy to screw up their skeletons in PERMANENT ways.

If you are going to do this eventually and don't have access to a nutritionist, you might want to buy Monica Segal's K9 Kitchen book and follow her on FB or subscribe to her newsletter. She ensures recipes follow NRC guidelines -- which isn't easy.

I would also ditch the cow's milk. Dog's don't digest it well. It also throws off the calcium-phosphorus ratio in the RC -- the "balanced" part of complete and balanced! You're making it unbalanced by adding more calcium, and the ca-ph ratio for puppies is crucial. Too much calcium can mess up their growth. (We've had a number of Indian users who were advised to supplement calcium in puppies, and the consensus here is not to do that and instead aim for a correct ratio. So you may be hearing different advice locally, based on how prevalent the posting has been out of India about adding calcium.)

I would suggest that you pick either RC or Farmina. Or rotate every few bags between them if the pup transitions well, to vary the nutrients. Just don't mix them -- again, either one is complete and balanced, but you are making them UNbalanced by mixing them, and thereby throwing off the nutrient ratios.
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Last edited by Magwart; 11-14-2018 at 01:25 AM.
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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 02:59 AM
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I agree that until the pup is older it would be best to stick with a quality kibble or commercial raw.
It seems from many posts on this forum that in India it is quite common for home cooked diets for dogs. Likely the reason most vets in India recommend calcium supplementation. Vets might assume without asking that the diet is home cooked and lacking in calcium so they prescribe it. Lack of calcium would not be the case if being fed kibble. Even the OP's list of ingredients of his home cooked diet for his older dog doesn't list any calcium source.

OP going forward should you revisit home cooked please remember that there must be a source of calcium (ie: bone meal) in balance with phosphorus in the diet of both your dogs.
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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 10:33 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Springbrz View Post
I agree that until the pup is older it would be best to stick with a quality kibble or commercial raw.
It seems from many posts on this forum that in India it is quite common for home cooked diets for dogs. Likely the reason most vets in India recommend calcium supplementation. Vets might assume without asking that the diet is home cooked and lacking in calcium so they prescribe it. Lack of calcium would not be the case if being fed kibble. Even the OP's list of ingredients of his home cooked diet for his older dog doesn't list any calcium source.

OP going forward should you revisit home cooked please remember that there must be a source of calcium (ie: bone meal) in balance with phosphorus in the diet of both your dogs.
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Originally Posted by Magwart View Post
I think it's flat out nuts for someone without sufficient experience or knowledge to try to self-formulate home-cooked food for a puppy unless you're working with a nutritionist andj/or using NRC spreadsheets tracking micronutrients. It's way to easy to screw up their skeletons in PERMANENT ways.
Err, if you read my OP, the only reason I would eventually want to go home cooked is because of my past experience with RC.

Also, FWIW, my other dog (4.5 years now) has been faring much better since I switched her from RC to a rotation of chicken/rice/ veggies and fish/oats/ veggies with a teensy bit of supplements , eggs and yogurt ...
It’s a lot more hard work and money than commercial kibble but I owe her that!

having said that, In any case, for now I’ve dropped my plans for the puppy altogether for at least the next 6 months..
Primarily because it would be a lot more difficult to get the right nutrient balance for a growing puppy vs a grown-up dog

Also I am not sure why rotating two supposedly balanced kibbles (RC and Farmina) would be preferable over mixing them.
Assuming both are balanced and the net quantity fed is right, wouldn’t mixing be preferred over rotation which during the rotational transition could cause an upset tummy?

BTW Thanks for the tip on Monica Segal
I have found the hard way that finding scientific information on nutritional balance for dogs is pretty hard to find on the web

Last edited by superczar; 11-14-2018 at 10:35 AM.
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by superczar View Post
Err, if you read my OP, the only reason I would eventually want to go home cooked is because of my past experience with RC.

Also, FWIW, my other dog (4.5 years now) has been faring much better since I switched her from RC to a rotation of chicken/rice/ veggies and fish/oats/ veggies with a teensy bit of supplements , eggs and yogurt ...
Itís a lot more hard work and money than commercial kibble but I owe her that!

having said that, In any case, for now Iíve dropped my plans for the puppy altogether for at least the next 6 months..
Primarily because it would be a lot more difficult to get the right nutrient balance for a growing puppy vs a grown-up dog

Also I am not sure why rotating two supposedly balanced kibbles (RC and Farmina) would be preferable over mixing them.
Assuming both are balanced and the net quantity fed is right, wouldnít mixing be preferred over rotation which during the rotational transition could cause an upset tummy?

BTW Thanks for the tip on Monica Segal
I have found the hard way that finding scientific information on nutritional balance for dogs is pretty hard to find on the web
I hope you didn't take offense to my post. I'm glad your older dog is doing well on your home cooked diet. I don't object to any dog being feed home cooked, raw or quality kibble. I was just simply pointing out since some else made a comment about calcium supplements being bad for growing puppies that calcium is needed in all life stages and it is one of the most often over looked add to home cooked diets. It was meant to be informational not judgmental.

I understand your feeling about RC food. We are very fortunate here in the United States to have many, many more options for our pets. It's sad that so many countries do not and have to make do with the less than best options for manufactured food because that is all that is available.

FWIW I agree with you on mixing kibbles. Since they are both balanced than I see no harm in mixing them if your dog likes them and eats well and maintains good health.

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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Springbrz View Post
I hope you didn't take offense to my post. I'm glad your older dog is doing well on your home cooked diet. I don't object to any dog being feed home cooked, raw or quality kibble. I was just simply pointing out since some else made a comment about calcium supplements being bad for growing puppies that calcium is needed in all life stages and it is one of the most often over looked add to home cooked diets. It was meant to be informational a not judgmental.

I understand your feeling about RC food. We are very fortunate here in the United States to have many, many more options for our pets. It's sad that so many countries do not and have to make do with the less than best options for manufactured food because that is all that is available.

FWIW I agree with you on mixing kibbles. Since they are both balanced than I see no harm in mixing them if your dog likes them and eats well and maintains good health.
None taken
The older dog also gets crushed egg shells once in a while..plus sheís lactose tolerant and loves getting her grubby paws into a bowl of milk once in a while

Coming to kibble in India, RC is the most widely available brand (barring of course, Pedigree)
Farmina (N&D) has been getting popular of late
Orijen too is available but Iíve heard mixed reviews , esp for puppies
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 02:40 PM
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So....I'm a total novice when I comes to gsd nutrition, And I'm not even a dog owner yet....9 more days till The pup comes!

However, I am a physician, and I feel compelled to make the following comment, most bc I'd like to hear your collective responses. I've learned a lot from this forum and I look forward to benefiting from your collective wisdom. So here goes.

In medicine, where new drugs and therapies are coming out all the time, only to be followed about 12 months later by commercials on TV for class action lawsuits because of side effects and adverse reactions to these drugs and therapies, it turns out that the drugs you NEVER see issues with are the old tried and true ones. The meds that have been around forever - aspirin, beta blockers, etc. these drugs have a long, wide-ranging track record over many decades with millions of people. so even though looking at them retrospectively has only limited value from a research point of view it's fairly easy to make assumptions about their safety simply based on the total number of people treated over many many years.

So here's my comment/question. Royal Canin has been around for ever. It's the food we've fed our Maine Coon cats for over 20 years. It's up there with the tried and true brands. Not a Johnny come lately. No lawsuits that I know of. Etc etc. So presuming your dog does not have a bonified, REAL grain allergy, what is the perceived problem with RC? Seems to me that RC has a pretty good track record. I understand the temptation to embrace new trends like grain free food for example, but the latest dust up around DCM is a perfect example of the unintended consequences of these kinds of decisions particularly Where more novel ideas in nutrition or pharmaceuticals are concerned. I understand fully that the jury is still out about DCM and grain-free food, taurine deficiency, Etc. I'm just using this as one example.

Now that's just my preception, so feel free to pile on now but be gentle.

🙂

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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 02:56 PM
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To the OP: Why do you feel that Royal Canin gave your dog cancer?

One of my dogs also died at 3 years old, and many here have had dogs die early of that horrible disease. I would never have though to blame the food she was eating, and I imagine most of these dogs were eating different brands.

Why Royal Canin in particular?
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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-14-2018, 03:01 PM
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Stick with 100% RC. Even adding home cooked to RC will offset the nutritional balance.
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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-21-2018, 03:22 AM Thread Starter
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Just a quick update :

The pup is now primarily on Farmina (pomegranate and ancestral grains) starter (75%)
I do give him RC starter mixed in one meal as well as a boiled egg mixed in in the morning (25%)

I refuse to agree that 100% of a single food is mandatory - assuming each commercial kibble is 100% balanced, mathemetically it does not matter if you mix them in any given proportion
If at all, it should be beneficial as 1 may have certain supplements that the other one doesn't so you are spreading the hedge

Coming to the post by @Ozymandiasmv - much appreciated!
Granted there may not be a direct connection between RC and cancer - but the fact remains that we would never feed ourselves, least of all a baby highly processed food all the time
It is almost conclusively proven for humans that excessive processed food has a correlation with cancer and other illnesses and every human physician would recommend sticking to a diet consisting of fresh food with maybe a little bit of processed food

I don't see why the same would not be true for our dogs!

At some point in time, I would still want to shift to a mix of kibble and home cooked
I must admit though that I found it very surprising that a lot of folks on this thread are of the view that creating a balanced homecooked meal is akin to rocket science
I found a few straightforward recipes such as this
I don't see why Mixing and matching other fresh ingredients , as long as I use a rough scale and a basic spreadsheet should be too difficult
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