Puppy Food and Down Pasterns? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 9Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-27-2018, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 6
Puppy Food and Down Pasterns?

Hello all, first post so forgive me if this has been addressed. I looked through search results but did not find any that covered the entirety of my question. As an introduction, we have a 16 week old German Shepherd. He is from good West German bloodlines and we have not heard off any of his relatives having similar issues, or maybe non issues. We had his great uncle (if that is even proper or how you say it) and he had no similar issues and had strong hips until the day he passed on. We had to put him down this past November (worst day of our lives...so far.) We also had access to many of his other adult relatives and didn't notice anything. The new puppy was also examined by two reputable vets with a good knowledge of GSD's and said he was a normal healthy puppy.

What started the conversation was a comment made by one of his trainers. We had him in a couple puppy training and socialization classes since he was about 9 weeks old. The trainer in particular is also a trainer for show and service dogs and seems very knowledgeable. She asked what we feed our dog because she noticed that he has slightly down pasterns. We never even heard of such a thing before, we just had GSD's as pets and never for show. But trusting her experience, we started looking into this further and we read that we should have him on a low protein diet (<22%). Right now we have him on Victor Active Dog and Puppy food, supplementing with Zuke's Hip Action treats once per day. His current food is 33% protein with 16% and 31.5% carbs. That doesn't seem very high to me. We wanted to keep him on a grain free formula and heard great things about Victor foods. We also wanted to try raw, but we were told that the place where we board him on occasion will not feed raw, and that it would be difficult to feed raw when we had to be out of town and he was with other family members. Right now, other than his pasterns, he is doing great on the food and gobbles it up as fast as he can.

Is there any validity to the high protein and weak pasterns suggestion? Or, is there some truth to that, but it depends on the source of the protein? I am just wondering if anyone had similar experiences. The only low protein food Victor has is not grain free. We used to feed Wellness Core to our other dog and he did well on it, so we may consider a switch to Wellness if it would help.

Our vet tech, who has been extremely helpful and is knowledgeable about the breed thinks that he will grow out of it and to switch him to adult food. We were also told to exercise him on soft surfaces like grass and sand. We thought of an adult food with joint and hip support if we did switch early. They said we could also supplement with Cosequin Maximum Strength DS with MSM if we were concerned. But since we have been getting conflicting information from so many reputable sources we figured we would check this forum too. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7606.jpg
Views:	248
Size:	123.5 KB
ID:	484441  
Maximus8881 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-27-2018, 07:29 PM
Crowned Member
 
Jax08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NNE PA
Posts: 29,760
Why low protein? I don't believe protein has a single thing to do with it. What is the calcium/phos. ratio of the food you are feeding? It's Victor so I would find it hard to believe it's not appropriate but it's possible that ratio is off.

Second, "grain free" is the best marketing gimmick ever. I think Victor is the only company that posts the protein content of the veges in their foods. You can replace corn/wheat with peas/sweet potatoes but carbs are carbs are carbs. Plus, the grains Victor uses are good ones. We've been feeding the blue and purple bags for years.
@carmspack - I think weak pasterns are your department! supplements? exercises?




Jax08 is offline  
post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-27-2018, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
Why low protein? I don't believe protein has a single thing to do with it. What is the calcium/phos. ratio of the food you are feeding? It's Victor so I would find it hard to believe it's not appropriate but it's possible that ratio is off.

Second, "grain free" is the best marketing gimmick ever. I think Victor is the only company that posts the protein content of the veges in their foods. You can replace corn/wheat with peas/sweet potatoes but carbs are carbs are carbs. Plus, the grains Victor uses are good ones. We've been feeding the blue and purple bags for years.
@carmspack - I think weak pasterns are your department! supplements? exercises?
Thank you very much for the info. I just checked the food profile and the following is the calcium/phosphorous percentages of the food he is on:

Calcium: 1.2%
Phosphorous: 1.1%

33% Protein
75% Meat protein
25% Plant protein

We considered switching him to the Green bag, Performance, because of the added Glucosamine. Info is as follows:

Calcium: 1.65%
Phosphorous: 1.1%

26% Protein
78% Meat protein
7% Plant Protein
15% Grain protein

We really liked the Green bag, Hero Canine also with Glucosamine, but the protein was 33%, 75% meat, 25% plant.
Maximus8881 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-27-2018, 08:32 PM
Crowned Member
 
Jax08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NNE PA
Posts: 29,760
I would not put him on a food with 1.65% calcium. I would leave him on the lower calcium. 1.2% is the maximum per AAFCO standards. I believe NRC is the same.

Just add the glucosamine separately if you feel he needs it. Wait for carmspack. She has a lot of knowledge on this.

I see nothing except websites saying high protein causes this. Do you have any information stating that from actual studies? Orthopedic vet websites? University websites? I would really like to see something concrete on that.




Jax08 is offline  
post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-27-2018, 08:38 PM
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: ontario -
Posts: 13,917
yes - why low protein?

high quality , appropriate amounts for stage of life .

protein is the basis of collagen .

notice how many times dogs with loose ligaments, soft pasterns also have faults in their feet , flat , lacking
padding and wide open toes.

there is a genetic component. breeders need to acknowledge this .

Carmen

**********


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
carmspack is offline  
post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-27-2018, 08:45 PM
Crowned Member
 
Jax08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NNE PA
Posts: 29,760
This is the nearest thing I can find to a reputable source for lowering protein. It was not a study but survey done by the GSDCA. I guess I would dispute a possible correlation, since I"m NOT a vet!, but I would like to see concrete evidence.

Here is a book on horse nutrition that relates protein, calcium and phosphorus to bone growth.
https://books.google.com/books?id=0T...0study&f=false




Jax08 is offline  
post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-27-2018, 08:47 PM
Crowned Member
 
LuvShepherds's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,197
I used Fromm Large Breed Puppy Food, 26% protein, 14% fat. Then mine developed an allergy and I switched to another Fromm with less fat and protein around 7 months. There are other foods you can try. Is the dog crated a lot? I think they can outgrow it.
LuvShepherds is offline  
post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-27-2018, 08:49 PM
Crowned Member
 
LuvShepherds's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,197
Here are examples.
https://frommfamily.com/products/dog...eed-puppy-gold

https://frommfamily.com/products/dog...ish-and-potato

I don’t use grain free unless they have grain allergies.
LuvShepherds is offline  
post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-27-2018, 08:50 PM
Crowned Member
 
Jax08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NNE PA
Posts: 29,760
Here are the 2014 AAFCO requirements. Protein should be 22.5%

http://www.aafco.org/Portals/0/SiteC...t_Profiles.pdf
crittersitter likes this.




Jax08 is offline  
post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-27-2018, 11:02 PM Thread Starter
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 6
Thanks everyone, I have not read any actual studies linking high protein to weak or down pasterns. Just our trainer, online articles and some forums. Given that our trainer mentioned it, then I saw it on the forums, I figured there were studies or evidence based articles stating that there was a link and I was just not finding them.

Thanks for the tip on avoiding the higher calcium food, we were warned by the vet to stay away from additional calcium whether in food or supplements. I just wasn't sure what was considered high. Great AAFCO article by the way, thank you for posting.

So it seems like the high protein link to weak pasterns may not be evidence based? That would be great since he is doing really well on Victor food. I wouldn't mind switching him to the 26% protein food even with the added grains, I just wanted to see if there was some downside to too much protein and what was too much. I would think that a working line dog would need protein, but again, I am just going by forums.

Also, yes, he is crated, I am not sure that I would say a lot. If we can't monitor him 100%, he is in the crate. That being said, we usually tether him to us so we can keep him close. The crate is much taller than him and he has plenty of room. He has been very good with the housebreaking so I opened up the crate quite a bit to give him plenty of room. When my wife and I both work on the same days, he is crated for a few hours at a time. I go home to let him out and let him run in the yard. My wife works 3 days per week. Since she has days off during the week and I do the weekends he is out of the crate quite a bit. I always have him out for at least a couple hours before bed. But, he does sleep in the crate and again, when we just can't keep an eye on him or he is getting a bit too rambunctious or bitey, he is in the crate. He doesn't seem to view it as a negative, he usually hops right in when I grab the kong knowing a reward will soon follow.
Maximus8881 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome