Orijen VS BB Wilderness VS Acana VS Canidae's LB puppy for picky eater? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-08-2016, 07:22 PM Thread Starter
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Orijen VS BB Wilderness VS Acana VS Canidae's LB puppy for picky eater?

Hello World,

My puppy has eating problems for a while now, but only recently the vet and the calculation in the screenshot below get me really concerned...A future 46lb adult GSD??? Sounds unhealthy to me.

My puppy is 7lb at 8 weeks, 15lb at 12 weeks, and now 25lb at 16 weeks. Both vet and random people comment she is too thin (when she is standing, there is a noticeable shallow area between her ribs and hips, and her ribcage is very clear to touch, tho not that bad that you can see her ribs). However her parents are 80lb and 110lb, and her siblings are only slightly bigger than she is when I met them (she has two brothers who were smaller than she was at the time of pick up as well).

She has been fed some sort of adult food soaked with water before 8 weeks by her breeder, and have tried Hiill's Science diet LB puppy from 8-9 weeks, she eats it okay at first but after 5 days she only eats less than half of the recommended amount, forcing me to change to Fromm's LB puppy immediately.

She did well on Fromm for 3 weeks, but as her weight grows, she is supposed to eat more food. However, she can't finish them every time, and as she grows older, she starts to eat 1/4cup less, 1/2 less and eventually 1 cup less than her recommended amount every day if I just leave the food for her to eat! If I mix the food with goat milk and my stirred-fried meat sauce tho, she normally finish most of her food, leaving only roughly 1/3cup behind (tho some days she still leave 1 whole cup behind even with the added flavor).

So now she is finishing up her Fromm bag and I am definitely changing food. My selections are "Orijen VS BB Wilderness VS Acana VS Canidae"'s LB puppy food because they are the only reputable brands whose LB puppy food recommends feeding less than 3 cups for her age and weight. (Fromm recommends 3 cups for 25lbs, but she can not finish them normally unless I add flavors to them and literally hand feed her every kibble.)

So which one of those 4 brands tastes the best from your experience? I don't even worry about anything else, I just want to make sure my pup eats her food.

Thanks,
J
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-08-2016, 07:36 PM
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i weighed my dog this morning and he came in at 53lbs !!! at 5months
only 1 week ago he was 48lbs

i only want my dog to be average and saw some GSD growth chart and it said avg weight at 5m is 50lbs, for males that is.

your dog looked healthy to me when i saw your "high five" post. it's a funny looking dog.

sometimes my dog loses appetite on regular kibble. he's on kirkland nature whatever salmon flavor. i would add either eggs or chicken, cooked, and he devours the whole thing. that's how i got his weight up.

i make sure he' s not overweight thouhg. he still has that waistline from bird's eye view, and his stomach goes up to his crotch rather than being flat

try adding some real food to the kibble, worked for mine
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-08-2016, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pan_GSD View Post
try adding some real food to the kibble, worked for mine
If nothing works out, I will tho I hope a kibble would work, that would save me lots of time (I barely cook for myself) lol.
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-08-2016, 08:14 PM Thread Starter
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Below the picture is what happens every night if I don't do something creative with the kibble and then hand-feed her if she still has leftover. Seriouly is there a period-blood tasting kibble? I am sure my dog will devour it judging from her resolute to dig out all my tampons lately...
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-09-2016, 12:07 AM
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I don't have experience with any of those kibbles. Are you moistening the kibble with warm water for 10 mins before serving? Give it a try. Maybe supplement with boiled meat and cooked potatoes ?
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-09-2016, 07:13 AM
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Just a thought here, but do you use a topical flea/tick med?

Despite manufacturers’ claims to the contrary, the ingredients of commonly used topical treatments can and do
enter the pets’ internal systems.Merial’s website states that fipronil (the active ingredient in Frontline, Parastar, EasySpot and
the new over the counter Sentry Fiproguard), is absorbed into the sebaceous glands of the skin which provide a natural reservoir, creating the impression that it does not migrate into the dog’s body. Dr. Dobozy of the EPA’s Pesticide Division took a look at fipronil and found that it does in fact enter the body and was contained in the fat, organs, urine and feces of dogs. Laboratory tests have shown that with long term exposure at low doses, fipronil has the potential for nervous system and thyroid toxicity, thyroid cancer, altered thyroid hormone levels, liver toxicity, kidney damage, convulsions, whining, barking, crying, loss of appetite, locomotor difficulty, reduced fertility, fetus mortality, smaller offspring, loss of hair at or beyond the point of application, moist inflammation, chemical burn and itching.
Read the whole article on page 24 here: http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/2012/May2012.pdf

A lot of breeders and owners do not feed "Puppy" food. They feed kibbles that have been "approved for all life stages" AND that have the correct Calcium/Phos levels and not high in Ash. If this might be a consideration for you, you can purchase smaller bags and rotate the flavors, even with the Fromm's (a great food!), which will keep the dogs interest. Example: Lamb for a day or two, then beef, then fish. Kibble's similar to Fromm's, like Acana and Orijen were made to rotate and the dog gets the nutritional benefit of different proteins!

If the above is not a consideration for you, I would go with the Acana or Orijen which are made by the same company, Champion. Note that Orijen can give some dogs loose stool. The "quality" of the ingredients of the other kibbles mentioned have been suspect in the past.

Always transition with small amounts of new food mixed with old, taking a week or two to change. If stool get loose, go back to previous amount fed (where stool was solid) and hold at that amount for a few days until his gut gets use to it. Then increase again. This is called "bowel tolerance".


I would also suggest to add one of the following Human Grade ProBiotics.
About 70% of the immune system lies in the gut, so it is very important to keep it healthy by adding the "good" bacteria!
Sunday Sundae (Digestive Enzyme & Pro-Biotic Combo): Sunday-Sundae-12oz
Gut Sense (ProBiotic): http://dr-dobias-natural-healing-usa...ducts/gutsense
The above companies make other "Whole Food" "Human Ingredient" supplements to add to the dogs food which you may want to consider.

Raw Goats Milk is very healthy. Or some Raw Keifer purchased from a local health food store. Dogs love these items and they are great for digestion and probiotics!

You could add a small amount of Raw ground meat to the food.
Put 1/8th or 1/4th cup of raw beef, turkey or chicken into the bowl. Add enough warm water to make a "soup". Then add the kibble, stir well and let set for 10 minutes (as ausdland suggested). The aroma will peak the dogs interest while she waits for it!
Using different raw ground meat is very easy and will give your dog nutrients from "real" food that hasn't been extruded into kibble, AND, you won't have to cook!

Good luck!
Moms
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Last edited by Momto2GSDs; 10-09-2016 at 07:20 AM.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 03:20 AM
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just went ahead and ordered Acana kibble from Chewy the other day. Should be getting it delivered in a day or two.
Excited about it since it is claimed to be one of the best kibbles out there, and I also see Beef Tripe and Lamb Tripe in the ingredient.

Not TOO much of a price jump from teh Salmon Kibble that my dog is on from costco
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 09:29 AM
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When dogs refuse to eat to the point they are too thin and/or are losing weight, I've learned over the years that we should investigate the total health. Have you run blood work recently, and was anything "off" in it?

I've encountered the behavior you describe many times, and I've not yet had one that did that without something else going on -- sometimes GI related, other times totally unrelated. It's often very, very subtle. It may take a remarkably good vet to figure out sometimes. We just had one in rescue doing this thing with not eating more than a small amount and dropping weight in her foster home -- after lots of dead ends, the vet figured out something unusual was going on with this dog's liver, and that was the clue about what was really going on...once we dealt with the illness, the appetite returned. She had just felt lousy because of the low-grade illness, which had no other symptoms. In another dog it was chronic respiratory problem that causing loss of appetite. Another one had a thyroid issue that needed correcting. In one of my personal dogs, it was an undiagnosed food allergy (the kibble made him feel sick, so he didn't want it).

My point is not to suggest any of these specific things are wrong with your dog, but to suggest you have a conversation with your vet about digging deeper. When a dog doesn't eat consistently to the point that it's losing weight and/or looking starved, it's potentially sick -- and this loss of appetite might be the only outward symptom you get of early illness. My earnest advice is to look beyond kibble brands and focus with your vet on the whole dog.
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-14-2016, 12:31 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry guys, I was busy with my start up lately and did not check the forum. Anyway, thanks for all your detailed info! The situation took a turn in the last several days tho, my puppy has had watery stool for 3 days now, and yesterday I took her to the vet. The vet gave me Royal Canin sensitive food and some antibiotics to feed her, she eats that food ok after I rotate putting goat milk and wet food to mix in. However I am worried her pickiness problem will get worse. She now picks on her treats as well, what used to work like magic can now barely get her attention.

However all of that might to due to whatever caused her those diarrhoea as well, tho she has been having food problems for a while now and the diarrhoea is only for the last 3 days. Anyway, I am waiting for the fecal test result, vet took her temperature yesterday which was normal, she was very happy and active as normal as well

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momto2GSDs View Post
Just a thought here, but do you use a topical flea/tick med?

Despite manufacturers’ claims to the contrary, the ingredients of commonly used topical treatments can and do
enter the pets’ internal systems.Merial’s website states that fipronil (the active ingredient in Frontline, Parastar, EasySpot and
the new over the counter Sentry Fiproguard), is absorbed into the sebaceous glands of the skin which provide a natural reservoir, creating the impression that it does not migrate into the dog’s body. Dr. Dobozy of the EPA’s Pesticide Division took a look at fipronil and found that it does in fact enter the body and was contained in the fat, organs, urine and feces of dogs. Laboratory tests have shown that with long term exposure at low doses, fipronil has the potential for nervous system and thyroid toxicity, thyroid cancer, altered thyroid hormone levels, liver toxicity, kidney damage, convulsions, whining, barking, crying, loss of appetite, locomotor difficulty, reduced fertility, fetus mortality, smaller offspring, loss of hair at or beyond the point of application, moist inflammation, chemical burn and itching.
Read the whole article on page 24 here: http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/2012/May2012.pdf

A lot of breeders and owners do not feed "Puppy" food. They feed kibbles that have been "approved for all life stages" AND that have the correct Calcium/Phos levels and not high in Ash. If this might be a consideration for you, you can purchase smaller bags and rotate the flavors, even with the Fromm's (a great food!), which will keep the dogs interest. Example: Lamb for a day or two, then beef, then fish. Kibble's similar to Fromm's, like Acana and Orijen were made to rotate and the dog gets the nutritional benefit of different proteins!

If the above is not a consideration for you, I would go with the Acana or Orijen which are made by the same company, Champion. Note that Orijen can give some dogs loose stool. The "quality" of the ingredients of the other kibbles mentioned have been suspect in the past.

Always transition with small amounts of new food mixed with old, taking a week or two to change. If stool get loose, go back to previous amount fed (where stool was solid) and hold at that amount for a few days until his gut gets use to it. Then increase again. This is called "bowel tolerance".


I would also suggest to add one of the following Human Grade ProBiotics.
About 70% of the immune system lies in the gut, so it is very important to keep it healthy by adding the "good" bacteria!
Sunday Sundae (Digestive Enzyme & Pro-Biotic Combo): Sunday-Sundae-12oz
Gut Sense (ProBiotic): http://dr-dobias-natural-healing-usa...ducts/gutsense
The above companies make other "Whole Food" "Human Ingredient" supplements to add to the dogs food which you may want to consider.

Raw Goats Milk is very healthy. Or some Raw Keifer purchased from a local health food store. Dogs love these items and they are great for digestion and probiotics!

You could add a small amount of Raw ground meat to the food.
Put 1/8th or 1/4th cup of raw beef, turkey or chicken into the bowl. Add enough warm water to make a "soup". Then add the kibble, stir well and let set for 10 minutes (as ausdland suggested). The aroma will peak the dogs interest while she waits for it!
Using different raw ground meat is very easy and will give your dog nutrients from "real" food that hasn't been extruded into kibble, AND, you won't have to cook!

Good luck!
Moms
Hey thanks for all the detailed info! I think adding in probiotic is a great idea. I am reluctant to go with raw meat tho, I am worried about her getting sick from those meat. (Being born in China, I have a deep suspicion of the quality of our food lol.) She does use flea/tick control, but since winter is coming and we are in canada, I think I will stop using it in Nov anyway. Let's see if her food problem gets better without those products

Anyway, thanks a lot and sorry for not getting back eariler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magwart View Post
When dogs refuse to eat to the point they are too thin and/or are losing weight, I've learned over the years that we should investigate the total health. Have you run blood work recently, and was anything "off" in it?

I've encountered the behavior you describe many times, and I've not yet had one that did that without something else going on -- sometimes GI related, other times totally unrelated. It's often very, very subtle. It may take a remarkably good vet to figure out sometimes. We just had one in rescue doing this thing with not eating more than a small amount and dropping weight in her foster home -- after lots of dead ends, the vet figured out something unusual was going on with this dog's liver, and that was the clue about what was really going on...once we dealt with the illness, the appetite returned. She had just felt lousy because of the low-grade illness, which had no other symptoms. In another dog it was chronic respiratory problem that causing loss of appetite. Another one had a thyroid issue that needed correcting. In one of my personal dogs, it was an undiagnosed food allergy (the kibble made him feel sick, so he didn't want it).

My point is not to suggest any of these specific things are wrong with your dog, but to suggest you have a conversation with your vet about digging deeper. When a dog doesn't eat consistently to the point that it's losing weight and/or looking starved, it's potentially sick -- and this loss of appetite might be the only outward symptom you get of early illness. My earnest advice is to look beyond kibble brands and focus with your vet on the whole dog.
This is so funny, you seemed to predict that my dog is gonna have diarrhea, and yeah she does not have ANY other symptom. She is playful, not feverish, sleep well, not whining, and just a normal hyperactive puppy. Anyway, lets see if her fecal test is gonna tell me something. The vest says it is most likely caused by bateria so she gave me antibiotics to feed her, tho she still has diarrhea today, but maybe I should wait longer for the medicine take effect.

Thanks for your info, haha I will definitely keep getting her checked if at least her diarrhea does not stop. I am just glad I got the pet insurance so I don't have second thoughts of going to the vet.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-14-2016, 09:10 PM
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I would consider allergies. My Baymax has allergies to chicken and grains. He had loose stool and diarrhea problems from the moment we got him, and it took us months to figure out what it was until someone finally suggested chicken might be the problem. Cleared everything right up once we took chicken out of his diet.

We also deal with pickiness problems with him, so we add pumpkin to his food every meal, and sometimes add chickenless canned food to his kibble. The pumpkin is a great option if she likes it, because it helps aid digestion problems!

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