Well that didn't work! The prong collar lessons - Page 4 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #31 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 06:49 AM
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Leerburg has online classes & one is leash reactivity with Tyler Muto, which I believe instructs you on using both the prong and e collar for this problem.

I'm pretty sure there isn't an interactive one coming up where you actually send in your video for critique, but self study costs less and might give you some new skills?
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post #32 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 12:27 PM
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I described Shadow as a sweet, smart dog with no coping skills.

Even mild, harmless stimulus gets a completely over the top reaction.

I have never believed and still don't that this is an aggressive dog. Or a dog that is a waste. I believe that this is a dog who honestly believes that she is in mortal danger from other dogs and is going on the offensive, fighting for her life in her mind. I hesitated over the prong because I didn't want to add to that sense of fear with a painful correction.

But...

If I can't control her, we are at a standstill. I need to be able to walk her to convince her no harm will come to her and in order to walk her I need to be able to control her.
Again, I have owned this dog literally all her life. I have studied her and watched her reactions all her life. She is genuinely afraid. I have no doubt that in the hands of a better person she could be something spectacular. Catch 22. In the hands of a more experienced person she may well have been put down that first night, and maybe I did her a disservice by keeping her alive, but that ship has sailed. I love this little dog beyond all reason, have from the second I first held her in my hands.
So here we are, doing the best we can.
You're right, if you can't control her you can't do anything with her on leash. Since you can't seem to find a trainer who will work with you or an unspayed dog, I'll share what we paid to find out. I hope you can use it. Our puppy was leash reactive due to my mistakes. When he was very young, I didn't correct him because I was trying to use positive training. Big mistake. I also didn't remove him from scary situations because I didn't realize what triggered fear. He didn't seem fearful he seemed confused, so I thought more exposure would help. But I let him get too close to his triggers without giving him an escape route.

The trainer said to flood him with so many dogs he couldn't react to them all in a crowded place with exit routes. We went to a popular dog walking park with a lot of empty spaces. I watched for him to start to react, and immediately turned around and walked away toward an area with no dogs. Every time he began to react, I removed the threat. I did that for almost two hours. Then I found a dog he liked, to walk with us. That solved the problem and he gained confidence. It's not a one time solution, we still do this desensitizing on a regular basis.
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post #33 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 01:42 PM
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One thing stands out to me. You just put it on and went out to see what would happen. If you're going to work on something or introduce something like the collar, it needs to be controlled and done in a way that you can do one thing at a time. I would have gone through some introduction time with the collar and no distractions first. This is something to think about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUNg-Vmdme4
Steve,
That is an excellent post and video. I really like Joanne Plumb's stuff.

“Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance”. George Bernard Shaw

Jim
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post #34 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
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You're right, if you can't control her you can't do anything with her on leash. Since you can't seem to find a trainer who will work with you or an unspayed dog, I'll share what we paid to find out. I hope you can use it. Our puppy was leash reactive due to my mistakes. When he was very young, I didn't correct him because I was trying to use positive training. Big mistake. I also didn't remove him from scary situations because I didn't realize what triggered fear. He didn't seem fearful he seemed confused, so I thought more exposure would help. But I let him get too close to his triggers without giving him an escape route.

The trainer said to flood him with so many dogs he couldn't react to them all in a crowded place with exit routes. We went to a popular dog walking park with a lot of empty spaces. I watched for him to start to react, and immediately turned around and walked away toward an area with no dogs. Every time he began to react, I removed the threat. I did that for almost two hours. Then I found a dog he liked, to walk with us. That solved the problem and he gained confidence. It's not a one time solution, we still do this desensitizing on a regular basis.
I have a dog park a block away. But do I want to take her there with the prong on? Or just her muzzle and harness?
Shadow has been attacked on leash a few times, so I don't blame her for being dog aggressive. It also seems like dogs react oddly to her. Dogs that I KNOW are good with other dogs attack her.
Thank you
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post #35 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 02:54 PM
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I have a dog park a block away. But do I want to take her there with the prong on? Or just her muzzle and harness?
Shadow has been attacked on leash a few times, so I don't blame her for being dog aggressive. It also seems like dogs react oddly to her. Dogs that I KNOW are good with other dogs attack her.
Thank you
I think nervy, fearful dogs are targets. Bluntly, but respectfully, make up your mind. If you're going to train her, put the harness away and train her. Stick with something. Be smart about what she can handle and use some distance. Don't throw her into the middle of a bunch of dogs. Some people like flooding like that, its too tough for me.
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post #36 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 02:57 PM
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Steve,
That is an excellent post and video. I really like Joanne Plumb's stuff.
Yeah, thats a pretty simple little drill. I'm surprised its still online.
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post #37 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
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I think nervy, fearful dogs are targets. Bluntly, but respectfully, make up your mind. If you're going to train her, put the harness away and train her. Stick with something. Be smart about what she can handle and use some distance. Don't throw her into the middle of a bunch of dogs. Some people like flooding like that, its too tough for me.
Steve, I won't fall down sobbing. Be as blunt as you like.

I avoided the flooding route, I used it with horses and IMO it is more likely to shut down a truly frightened animal then fix it. A lot of people recommend it though, and at this point I am over my head, with a dog who probably spends half her life frightened and on edge.
I liked the harness for taking the strain of my arm and shoulder but it wasn't fixing anything.
We did another round with the prong this morning and one just now. I see improvement. She is willing to ignore people, and birds. Cats and bunnies still put her on her toes. But she turned willing away from a dog half a block away after a firm correction. Some ear flicking but she didn't try anything.
We did some obedience and she is getting closer. Stubborn witch.
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post #38 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Strom View Post
I think nervy, fearful dogs are targets. Bluntly, but respectfully, make up your mind. If you're going to train her, put the harness away and train her. Stick with something. Be smart about what she can handle and use some distance. Don't throw her into the middle of a bunch of dogs. Some people like flooding like that, its too tough for me.
I flood from a distance not in the middle of a pack of dogs. Maybe flooding is the wrong word. I will change it to "exposure." The point being if I expose my dog to one dog that is barking and out of control, he will focus on that dog and I have a problem to deal with. If we are in a park with ten or twenty other dogs at a distance we can approach and recede over and over again where my dog never gets too close and never reacts because I can walk away before he gets into full reactivity. I watch him for signs and if he starts to show fear or aggression or lunging, I turn around and we walk away. That forces him to focus on me and develop trust. He has gradually learned that dogs on leashes in a park are not a danger and he barely reacts at all anymore.
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post #39 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 03:51 PM
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You aren't over your head. You're just hunting around looking for a fix. Stick with obedience. You tell her to sit, she has to sit. Eventually no matter what else is going on. At some point she has to just deal with whatever, but its a lot easier to make the obedience solid, then slowly add the problems like any other distraction.
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post #40 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by LuvShepherds View Post
I flood from a distance not in the middle of a pack of dogs. Maybe flooding is the wrong word. I will change it to "exposure." The point being if I expose my dog to one dog that is barking and out of control, he will focus on that dog and I have a problem to deal with. If we are in a park with ten or twenty other dogs at a distance we can approach and recede over and over again where my dog never gets too close and never reacts because I can walk away before he gets into full reactivity. I watch him for signs and if he starts to show fear or aggression or lunging, I turn around and we walk away. That forces him to focus on me and develop trust. He has gradually learned that dogs on leashes in a park are not a danger and he barely reacts at all anymore.
At a distance with a plan though LS. Not just putting on a muzzle and going into a dog park is all I meant.
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