Well that didn't work! The prong collar lessons - Page 2 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 32Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 66 (permalink) Old 04-30-2016, 01:58 AM Thread Starter
Crowned Member
 
Sabis mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 4,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fodder View Post
adding to what the others have said... there's also no need to suck up your positive attitude - if I'm understanding you correctly. my attitude when working my dogs is the same whether I have a clicker and treats or a prong collar on. my goal for all training sessions is to be fun, upbeat, positive and engaging. dogs live in the moment... if the need comes to correct them, I do what I need to get their focus back on me, then return to the positive as quickly as possible. no anger, frustration, grudges or anything.

I never leave my house expecting or looking for the opportunity or reason to correct. engagement and rewards is always a priority.
Fodder, I have some issues that make being out and about uncomfortable.
When I add the fact that Shadow explodes in a blink, and that she has done permanent damage to my shoulder with her foolishness, yes I need to suck up a positive attitude. Not perhaps in the sense that you are thinking but in that I need to muster all my spirit as it were, because I don't want to get upset and have her feeding off that.
Sabis mom is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 66 (permalink) Old 04-30-2016, 02:30 AM
Crowned Member
 
Fodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Northern California
Posts: 6,049
^ok, my apologies, I definitely understood it to mean the opposite of what you're saying above.
Sabis mom likes this.

TILDEN: Male: Blk/Red LHGSD: DOB: 12/24/06 65lbs of Love
KEYSTONE: Male: Sable: DOB: 2/11/13 55lbs of Go!!!!!
Fodder is offline  
post #13 of 66 (permalink) Old 04-30-2016, 10:58 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Dayton NV
Posts: 7,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabis mom View Post
Well, thanks for the feedback.

Let me clear up a few things though.
I have been using it for 3 days in the basement and the yard. I didn't just 'slap it on and go'.
I never let her run to the end of the leash and figure it out herself. She was walking nicely beside me on a few inches of slack.
I am fairly sure that I misread her initial compliance when she saw the dog and waited to long to correct, because when she saw the bird she looked but didn't react.

I will go back to just the yard for now, and keep trying.
I don't have access to a trainer at the moment, she isn't spayed so no one around here will work with her. So I read and watch, because that's all I can do. I realize that it isn't a perfect system but it's all I have.
LOL ...well cue me!

You seem to already realize your mistake (late timing) but for others the potential problem with "Prongs" ... put drive in or take drive out it got elaborated on by Slamdunc:

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...3-post521.html

Some trainers have seen people struggle with "Prong Collar" corrections even with eyes on instructions and "apparently" decided "screw it" just use a Pet Convincer" :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfiDe0GNnLQ

And you may find something useful in here:
Teach your Dog to ignore other dogs. - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

Keep us posted.
Chip18 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #14 of 66 (permalink) Old 04-30-2016, 11:34 AM
Crowned Member
 
SuperG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Great White North
Posts: 4,469
Sabis mom,

First, I can appreciate the frustration as I have been down the path of dealing with a reactive dog.....it was a new experience for me and I made myself vulnerable to all the "fixes" and the "guarantees" many trainers offered.
Because of my basic nature....I pursued the least aversive methods first....these methods may work on a very mild reactive dog but didn't seem to be the ticket for me and my dog...so I proceeded to the next method and "guarantees"....basically about the same story....some improvement but still not acceptable as far as I was concerned. I even compromised my "basic nature" and did the e-collar method ....once again...some improvement but still not what I was willing to accept as a final solution. Actually, the biggest improvements in her reactivity came through all the obedience work we did...the more obedient she was....the easier it was to keep her check with her reactivity....made sense to me. But, still not there yet,

My good fortune brought me across a gentleman ...a retired LE K9 handler who still trains LE dogs....I told him my story and he took me under his wing....he had me attend some K9 training sessions and worked with me during their lunch breaks. This is where I was introduced to the dominant dog collar and the proper way to use it for dog reactivity. I have found the answer as the two trainers who deal with me seriously know the breed and how to deal with this issue....plus it's great being around a bunch of high drive dogs which most all of them had similar reactivity issues as mine earlier on in their training...if not a ton more. Being in that environment was living proof...the "guarantee" was right there in front of my eyes.

Now to bore you more...some observations and realizations. My use of the prong to correct this problem most likely was just ramping the dog up unless I caught the dog well before she was about to light up. The correction from a prong if she was full on...would probably need to be more severe than I was providing...and worse yet..when I would get closer to that level...I was anything but calm and composed....my emotions were running high as well...it was a lose/lose situation. The use of the dominant dog collar and application is entirely different......no yanking...none...just steady upward pressure AND in doing this....it had an effect on me...I was keeping my cool....

I had heard in here at times thoughts such as ..." a few potent well-timed corrections is infinitely better than many ineffective lesser corrections"....I understand that now...I obviously didn't then. Yeah, I might annoy my dog using lesser prong pops at times but it isn't to deal with issues like reactivity...more just to keep the dog in line with obedience skills if she is having an off day.

I also remember Slamdunc stating that most handlers think their dogs are more severe in their reactivity than they truly are.....this I have found to be true in my situation...I base it on the fact that the amount of full corrections I have had to use with the DDC is incredibly less than any other method previous......I'm talking like a total of 6-10 full uses of the DDC to date...and the results are better than all the rest of the methods combined...yeah, much of it could have been handler error on my behalf but I was under the tutelage of "professional" trainers...that's the excuse I'm going with

Just a suggestion, if you could check around with your local LE and find out who or where they get their K9 training done...it might open some doors and help you out tremendously. I know they aren't necessarily in the business of training JQP's dogs....but if you are lucky enough to find something like I did....I'd give it a try. Like I said above....these folks truly know the breed and know their training and they don't patronize you or sugarcoat your failings in the process...I like this fact.....plus they are incredibly nice people...especially to ones with GSDs and Mals.

SuperG

Hündin 32CACT, 2334CSAT, 2016 GAA 2.85
SuperG is offline  
post #15 of 66 (permalink) Old 04-30-2016, 12:21 PM
Crowned Member
 
Mary Beth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Pierre, South Dakota
Posts: 5,129
Oh my, I do understand. My Sting would have been just as bad but finished off his antics with one mighty lunge that would have pulled the leash out of my hands (easy with his 126 lbs to my 100 lbs) and got to the other dog. There are no trainers in my area so I have to learn like you do. Lucky for me, my neighbor whose lab/pointer is a handful told me she uses a front ring harness. So I researched them. The harness and method I have been using for over 5 years is the Walk In Sync by Colorado trainer Alecia Evans https://dogwalkinsync.com/ She developed the method and harness because her first dog, a big lab, was a strong puller. The harness and leash also includes free videos to show how to use it. I had nothing to lose as it comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. My Sting isn't a puller but a lunger - one second sitting so nicely, the next second lunge . It did work. When he saw another dog - the harness seemed to push him back - actually it is based on the theory that a dog does not want to push against something - since his impulse to lunge was checked I could then either turn suddenly or if that wasn't possible - have him sit. I don't have to worry about timing corrections or if they are too hard or too light. To me it is like using a hackamore on a horse instead of a severe bit. It works for me and so, I just wanted to suggest it is another alternative.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Royal K9s Baron Sting DB 7/9/2017


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Sting Chance von Gaard 2006-2017
Mary Beth is offline  
post #16 of 66 (permalink) Old 04-30-2016, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
Crowned Member
 
Sabis mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 4,268
Wow. some really good ideas.

Shadow is not mildly reactive. And she isn't playing. In response to another dog I get pulling, lunging, snarling, frothing at the mouth. She will pull hard enough to literally be almost on her side trying to get at them. She will flip herself completely over. I had thought when she was younger maybe it was just excitement, nope. Thank goodness she was muzzled. I found out she could walk, and jog, backwards when I tried the 'just keep walking'. She has focus.
I have been using an easywalk harness, but she can snake her way out of it.
I stopped using a choke when she choked herself unconscious.
I tried a halti, but I was concerned about neck damage when she starts flipping around. Because if you control the head you control the horse, I thought it seemed plausible that the same was true for dogs. Not.
I taught her not to chase cars using an empty pop can with some rocks in it. I tied it to her leash just a few inches from her. Every time she lunged it rattled and snapped her out of it. It worked well, and fast. But with dogs it just made her angrier.
So the prong was sort of do or die for us. I will keep working in the yard and try to master this.
It did apparently work to stop the bird chasing, so clearly the hunting of birds is just a game. The hunting of dogs is life or death.
dogma13 likes this.
Sabis mom is offline  
post #17 of 66 (permalink) Old 04-30-2016, 01:13 PM
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,136
Quote:
I have been using it for 3 days in the basement and the yard. I didn't just 'slap it on and go'.
I didn't choose my words very well, I was hunting around for that video. My only point was the leash pressure stuff really doesn't have much to do with the way you went out to use the collar. If you were going to go that route with it, which to me seems like a waste of time, you needed to stick with that use.

That video shows a pretty simple intro to the entire action of a correction. You can end up with the collar itself not being that important. A fursaver will get the same reaction from your dog as a prong or anything else. The total picture of it will keep it clear for her.
Steve Strom is offline  
post #18 of 66 (permalink) Old 04-30-2016, 01:31 PM
Crowned Member
 
SuperG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Great White North
Posts: 4,469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabis mom View Post

Shadow is not mildly reactive. And she isn't playing. In response to another dog I get pulling, lunging, snarling, frothing at the mouth. She will pull hard enough to literally be almost on her side trying to get at them. She will flip herself completely over
Sounds just like how my girl was.....pretty intimidating and certainly sending her best signals to the other dog.....you don't want to mess with me attitude no doubt. Has she ever come up the leash at you during her antics? or blindly bitten you during her bouts of directed aggression at the other dog?

SuperG

Hündin 32CACT, 2334CSAT, 2016 GAA 2.85
SuperG is offline  
post #19 of 66 (permalink) Old 04-30-2016, 01:44 PM
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabis mom View Post
Fodder, I have some issues that make being out and about uncomfortable.
When I add the fact that Shadow explodes in a blink, and that she has done permanent damage to my shoulder with her foolishness, yes I need to suck up a positive attitude. Not perhaps in the sense that you are thinking but in that I need to muster all my spirit as it were, because I don't want to get upset and have her feeding off that.
How about an ecollar? Its easier on your shoulders and the impersonal nature of it makes it less stress for you and less for her to feed off.
Steve Strom is offline  
post #20 of 66 (permalink) Old 04-30-2016, 01:51 PM
Member
 
Niexist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 142
It's funny how different dogs react differently to a prong. For instance I only put on the prong when doing Fus training, and for the most part just to keep Judith from straying off, or pulling while trying to Fus. She's a very calm pup, and my trainer says she has great focus, so I've never experienced her trying to pull against the prong collar even once.
Niexist is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome