Comparing protein/fat in different food styles - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 03:10 PM Thread Starter
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Comparing protein/fat in different food styles

So, I believe I remember from somewhere that protein and fat % can't be compared apples to apples between different types of food. By types I mean: canned, kibble, dehydrated ect.

Am I remembering that correctly? Let me tell you more what I am getting at and see if anybody can help me understand. I've had my boy on Victor High Energy and it seemed like he used to do well on it but no more. I began to think that perhaps loose stools correlated to too much fat.

Now he is on 50/50 Victor and Purina EN and doing much better with stools. I did not eliminate the victor enitirely because historically there is just only so much my dog will eat in a day and he is done, and if he doesn't get enough calories in there he will look ribby. So the Victor is much higher calorie. Also much higher fat.

Victor is 24% Protein, 20% Fat

Purina is 23% protein 10% Fat

Now, I don't want to feed my dog Purina. But he is doing really well on it. Because it's lowered the over all fat content?? He also eats the EN canned which is 8% protein and 2 % fat. How does that equate to the dry? I am confused.

Next part:

My girl eats 50/50 Honest Kitchen and Ziwi Peak. Her HK is 15% fat. But it's not kibble, so is that the same as 15% fat kibble?

Ziwipeak's lowest fat formula is the venison and that is 25% fat. But how does that really compare to the two kibbles listed above? It crossed my mind to try him on 50/50 HK and Ziwi and see if that would work for him but worried the fat would be too high and give him loose stools?

Can anybody help me figure out how all this compares?
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 04:22 PM
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To compare between types you need to look at each on a dry matter basis. You take the moisture content out of the equation. Subtract the moisture content from 100 which will give you the dry matter percentage, then divide the as fed percentage by the dry matter percentage. This will give you the dry matter percentage of the nutrient.

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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ken Clean-Air System View Post
To compare between types you need to look at each on a dry matter basis. You take the moisture content out of the equation. Subtract the moisture content from 100 which will give you the dry matter percentage, then divide the as fed percentage by the dry matter percentage. This will give you the dry matter percentage of the nutrient.
THANK YOU. Now, let's see if I am smart enough to actually do that
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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 05:56 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Clean-Air System View Post
To compare between types you need to look at each on a dry matter basis. You take the moisture content out of the equation. Subtract the moisture content from 100 which will give you the dry matter percentage, then divide the as fed percentage by the dry matter percentage. This will give you the dry matter percentage of the nutrient.
OK Victor lists a moisture of 9%, fat 20%

No, I am not smart enough.

Subtract the moisture content from 100---do I subtract 9 from 100?

91, so 20/91= .23?

Compared to Ziwi lists moisture at 14%, fat 25%
So 25/86= .29?

Honest kitchen 8.6% moisture and 15% fat
17%

So I am going to guess that if I did this math right, and if I am right that too high fat bothers him, then he probably can't eat any ziwi at all? Because the lowest fat ziwi is higher than the high fat kibble?
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 06:02 PM
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a % of fat does not tell you the quality of that fat !!

you can have recycled restaurant grease that would do better as a biofuel,
you can have rancid fat , you can have high omega 6 fat , gmo fats , heat adulterated fats.
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 06:09 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
a % of fat does not tell you the quality of that fat !!

you can have recycled restaurant grease that would do better as a biofuel,
you can have rancid fat , you can have high omega 6 fat , gmo fats , heat adulterated fats.
Ok well, I'll take a guess that the fat in Ziwi is none of those things since it has not been heated and everyone seems to think pretty highly of it? I DID think when I fed him ziwi in contributed to loose stools but at this point I almost think everything/anything gives him loose stools.

If he eats his Purina kibble/purina canned, and nothing else, he does great. Partly I feel common sense says leave him alone if he does good on the purina but then the ingredient list is staring at me every time i feed my dog. I hate being stuck in this situation!!

My girl is doing awesome on the ziwi/hk combo. He ate the HK and it seemed to agree with him ok but he turned into a rack of ribs on it-- it fell into the category of he can never eat enough of this to hold weight.
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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Thecowboysgirl View Post
Ok well, I'll take a guess that the fat in Ziwi is none of those things since it has not been heated and everyone seems to think pretty highly of it? I DID think when I fed him ziwi in contributed to loose stools but at this point I almost think everything/anything gives him loose stools.

If he eats his Purina kibble/purina canned, and nothing else, he does great. Partly I feel common sense says leave him alone if he does good on the purina but then the ingredient list is staring at me every time i feed my dog. I hate being stuck in this situation!!

My girl is doing awesome on the ziwi/hk combo. He ate the HK and it seemed to agree with him ok but he turned into a rack of ribs on it-- it fell into the category of he can never eat enough of this to hold weight.
I know how you feel. It totally sucks when you "know better" about canine nutrition but what your dog does best on are those questionable ingredient, highly processed, prescription diets. It pained me pouring that stuff into the bowl.

But... If it works. It works. If it keeps him satiated, at a good weight, and provides all his Micro and Macros... Then it is what it is. I wouldn't beat myself up over it. It may not be the nutritional "ideal" but there are literally millions of dogs out there living good, long lives on the crappiest of kibbles. If it works for your dog - that is the most important thing.

But I get it. You want to feed the best to your dogs.

You know my philosophy on feeding. I am not an all or nothing person when it come to diet. I'm a "do the best that you can, and compromises are OK as long as you are meeting the base needs" type of feeder.

Has he been stable on the EN long enough for you to experiment? You said he did OK on the THK just didn't keep weight on right? Would you feel better if you replaced some of the EN canned with THK that way he gets some whole real food into his diet? Are there any foods on his safe list you could use as nutritional power house topper? Spirulina, Liver, Berries, Mushrooms, Herbs, Egg, ETC?

For what it's worth, it does seem like higher fat content is an issue for him (And yes Ziwi is very high quality. Grass fed, antibiotic and hormone free, preserved at lower temps.) It also sounds like he does better with higher fiber. THK is pretty well known for making bulky stools, the purina EN also has a lot of errmmm stool bulkers in it... If it gets to the point that you want to offer more whole foods or better brands of commerical that is what I would look for. I might even consider adding something like psyllium for that bulking effect.

You're doing the best by your dog that you can. Don't let that ingredient list mock you.
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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 10:42 PM Thread Starter
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Voodoo said: " But... If it works. It works. If it keeps him satiated, at a good weight, and provides all his Micro and Macros... Then it is what it is."

It DOES do all of these things, and he likes it pretty well and he can be picky.

Has he been stable enough on EN to experiment-- probably not. I'm just always antsy because I hate that he is eating this crap but I need to leave him alone because he does do good on this diet. Thanks for reminding me not to go down the rabbit hole @voodoolamb. I still want to try to get him some better nutrition eventually but I don't have to rush into it and destabilize him

I never got him weaned all the way onto HK when I tried it because he just lost weight so fast before I even got him weaned over. It seemed okay for his bowels. It might have been two or 3 weeks he got up to one meal a day and he was getting ribby and it just wasn't working so I gave up.

He has had a good stretch on the bland EN diet and I was still adding in a bit of home cooked meat to it. I already had figured out that for whatever reason, I could swear he used to eat a good chunk of this meat and was fine with it, but now if i give him too much meat he gets loose stools. His home cooked is ground beef mixed with 1/4 cup Sojos per pound of meat. I bake it in the oven and drain it well on a rack to get all the grease out that I can.

He can have a solid month of firm stools on this diet. I had gotten a bulk order of grassfed ground beef from a dog food provider that I was using to cook his home made part, but I ran out so I made him his regular loaf but with grocery store beef. The different beef gave him loose stool. Now I suspect the dog food meat was like heart or something because it smelled different and looked different than grocery store beef. But anyway, that's enough to give him a loose stool. After that I quit adding home cooked and he is just on total crap and then he does fine.

He sometimes sniffs around her bowl and wants her THK keen. I like the idea of trying a little HK instead of the canned but I think I better leave him alone for a bit because he did just have that loose stool because of the beef switch.

BTW I have covered all the reasonable bases with the vet-- he has had fecals done, he has had a special giardia test, he has been tested for EPI and all his bloodwork is great. My vet basically said, he is sensitive, easy to get a loose stool from over indulgence or something new, it clears up quickly and easily on its own and he isn't worried.
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