double trouble - the problem with keeping 2 littermates - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 06:02 PM Thread Starter
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double trouble - the problem with keeping 2 littermates

strong statement that cuts right to the chase

Quote " Another common situation that is rather problematical is when two littermates are raised together. This sort of arrangement is rarely recommended, since very often one of the puppies seem to flourish while the sibling is over-shadowed and fails to achieve his potential.
Pfaffenberger observed similar difficulties with dogs reared with their mother or sibling:
At San Rafael, besides the experience of having over-aggressiveness develop in dogs who did not remain under their mother's discipline long enough, we have had some bad effects from overlong canine socialization. I cannot remember a single dog wo was raised with her mother to adulthood who could be successfully trained for a Guide Dog .
Where two littermates are raised together in the same home we have had the same results . Puppies raised in homes where there are no dogs not related to them have never been affected this way by the association with other dogs..
In the case of two littermates raised together one becomes a successful candidate (for the Guide Dog work) and one fails even if their apptitude test were equal"

Pfaffenberger (Clarence) authored the book "New Knowledge of Dog Behaviour" based on research done by Fuller and Scott "Genetics and the Social Behaviour of the Dog" ,

Puppy Sibling Rivalry, It's More Than Just Conflict - Daily Dog Discoveries

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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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I said I would and I did

"oh NO ----- not two littermates -- not two sisters --- okay I am going to have to go to my reference books and make a separate thread about the disaster that this is .
reference would be Handbook of Applied Dog Behaviour and Training - Adaptation and Learning -
Choose ONE of them.

breeder should not have let you take two --- what is their interest , the welfare of the dog or the quick sale and $$$.

there are so many threads and posts about problems -- which are a given

visit this thread rethinking "popular" early socialization

this is NOT a comment about your being an excellent owner --

do you know name of sire and dam --- if you post this I am sure someone can find the pedigree of the pooch(es).
Carmen
this from https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...d-sable-2.html

we have had so many threads on littermates as pups , or entering young adulthood fraught with problems or potential problems that it was time to have a central reference for future new owners contemplating owning littermates.

I know that the owners don't like to hear otherwise -- they will fight with anyone telling them it isn't the best of ideas , then disappear .

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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 06:54 PM
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Interestingly enough, we kept 2 litter mates, a male and a female and they both flourished... HOWEVER, one was my dad and one was mine. While at the time of their adolescents and a yr old they were in same home, they were treated differently because of ownership and goals... My job called me away for a yr and then they were together again until they passed away at 15 and 10 (due to a growth, probably hermangio)... We had their mother as well who was mine, so treated with great expectations, which was given..

I realize my circumstances were different, and my job allowed (and required) excellent training from my dogs... We had one daughter on mother aggressive act, but otherwise the pack got along very well.. The dogs were in essence in 2 different family sets even though in same household...

Can't say I would choose to do it if I was handling the pups solo... I am sure it would be a different story and require shrewd handling to not neglect the needs of one over another...
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 06:56 PM Thread Starter
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did they grow up together , inseparable or did they each begin as individuals with different homes and owners and then re-unite because of circumstances later on ?

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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
we have had so many threads on littermates as pups , or entering young adulthood fraught with problems or potential problems that it was time to have a central reference for future new owners contemplating owning littermates.

I know that the owners don't like to hear otherwise -- they will fight with anyone telling them it isn't the best of ideas , then disappear .

I don't think the average dog owner can take on same-sex littermates without problems. Yes, you might get lucky, but what if you don't?

~ Diane ~

CARLY ......... Ch. Lauremi's No Reservations (AKC GCh pointed, HIC)
SCARLET ..... Lauremi's Almost Wasn't (AKC pointed)
and absent friends... SAGE ~ Lauremi's Whim Z v Jakmar ~ AKC major ptd, HIC ~ 2010-2015
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 11:08 PM
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They grew up together, same home but different owners.. I was a very young adult and paying rent, working and my dogs went everywhere with me, my dad worked and dog stayed home but was worked with by him all the time and went with him everywhere when he could take her. Then the separation for a year and then together again. But because they lived and played together but had separate ownership, and thus expectations and dual but separate love and attention, I believe it worked out well. It wasn't a siblings with one owner trying to do all and meet all needs...
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 06-30-2016, 11:15 PM
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I think some can, some can't. Lots of today's owners can't own 1 GSD without issues -- Look at all the, "My 10-week-old puppy is aggressive and dominant, HELPPP!!!!" threads.

I have raised many sets of female littermates without problems. But, I can and will separate them, if I feel it necessary. I know several people who have male littermates without issues.

It isn't for everyone though.
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-01-2016, 12:14 AM
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I just don't get how anyone can do this well unless they don't work and are willing to focus their lives around the dogs. That is just me. One puppy takes all my time. But I also have high standards about what I want from a dog, I am very focused on trying to bring the best out of that individual, and I have high drive dogs.

I also, in my uninformed youth, had a GSD and when she was 18 months old I got a lab mix pup. I was working full time, then in school full time, and was single. Not a disaster but looking back I cringe. The dogs had a lot of time by themselves and that lab pup and I never bonded. The lab belonged to the GSD. While the lab was submissive and not a problem, he was an anxious mess when she was not around or later, when she died. The lab never got to reach his full potential and while this happened in the 90s, I still feel terribly guilty about that choice.

I do understand the urge to have more. Oh another puppy, how cool will that be? When we enjoy the connection with our animals, that unique connection, I think we humans really have a great tendency to want more. We hoard, we buy more, we gather up. I have two dogs (one my SAR dog, one is my husband's), but a friend has a retired IPO dog that I would love to adopt. A beautiful WGWL boy that is about 7 years old. I hear the voices... "I can do it" "We could make it work" I slap myself around, "Noooooo!!!!!" I could do it but it would change the dynamic (see I'm still talking myself out of it!)

It is about delayed gratification. We humans, when we like something, we want more NOW. Very hard to delay. Now a person who has decided that their lifestyle is about dogs, I say it can work. So folks who do lots of dog sports and their lifestyle is organized around that, I think they can handle it. But just a person who likes dogs but has kids, jobs, other hobbies... I think it often backfires. Sad because often, not always, a dog will pay... like my lab mix.

And one more thing. Sometimes we say, wait a year or 18 months before getting a second dog. I say wait 3 years. My dutch, 65 lbs, changed pretty dramatically in the months around his 3rd birthday. To have another distraction of another dog before his 3rd birthday would have cost us, I would have lost something with him... (Wait, does that mean I can adopt that other dog now? SLAP)

Keep in mind I work 4 days a week. If I didn't have a job, I would have more dogs. hahaha.

Get one dog and commit and invest for at least 3 years. That is my advice.
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-01-2016, 01:06 AM
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I just don't get how anyone can do this well unless they don't work and are willing to focus their lives around the dogs. That is just me. One puppy takes all my time. But I also have high standards about what I want from a dog, I am very focused on trying to bring the best out of that individual, and I have high drive dogs.

I also, in my uninformed youth, had a GSD and when she was 18 months old I got a lab mix pup. I was working full time, then in school full time, and was single. Not a disaster but looking back I cringe. The dogs had a lot of time by themselves and that lab pup and I never bonded. The lab belonged to the GSD. While the lab was submissive and not a problem, he was an anxious mess when she was not around or later, when she died. The lab never got to reach his full potential and while this happened in the 90s, I still feel terribly guilty about that choice.

I do understand the urge to have more. Oh another puppy, how cool will that be? When we enjoy the connection with our animals, that unique connection, I think we humans really have a great tendency to want more. We hoard, we buy more, we gather up. I have two dogs (one my SAR dog, one is my husband's), but a friend has a retired IPO dog that I would love to adopt. A beautiful WGWL boy that is about 7 years old. I hear the voices... "I can do it" "We could make it work" I slap myself around, "Noooooo!!!!!" I could do it but it would change the dynamic (see I'm still talking myself out of it!)

It is about delayed gratification. We humans, when we like something, we want more NOW. Very hard to delay. Now a person who has decided that their lifestyle is about dogs, I say it can work. So folks who do lots of dog sports and their lifestyle is organized around that, I think they can handle it. But just a person who likes dogs but has kids, jobs, other hobbies... I think it often backfires. Sad because often, not always, a dog will pay... like my lab mix.

And one more thing. Sometimes we say, wait a year or 18 months before getting a second dog. I say wait 3 years. My dutch, 65 lbs, changed pretty dramatically in the months around his 3rd birthday. To have another distraction of another dog before his 3rd birthday would have cost us, I would have lost something with him... (Wait, does that mean I can adopt that other dog now? SLAP)

Keep in mind I work 4 days a week. If I didn't have a job, I would have more dogs. hahaha.

Get one dog and commit and invest for at least 3 years. That is my advice.
Hmm, I thought being raised with another dog isnt a problem? My brother has a 1.5 year old gsd that will probably interact with the pup I plan to get on a regular basis. (3-5 times a week).
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-01-2016, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selzer View Post
I think some can, some can't. Lots of today's owners can't own 1 GSD without issues -- Look at all the, "My 10-week-old puppy is aggressive and dominant, HELPPP!!!!" threads.

I have raised many sets of female littermates without problems. But, I can and will separate them, if I feel it necessary. I know several people who have male littermates without issues.

It isn't for everyone though.
This.

I hate when people say; "My puppy is dominant" -... I really, really hate that.

Lol, when I got another new pup these people I knew where also there buying their pup (visiting the pups at 6 weeks than bought at 8 weeks), and they saw me buying one and they acted like experts .. But you could tell they were newbies at being dog owners.. They bought two litter mates because I was there and bragged about it to me, weeks later, I ran into them at the vet office, all I hear is them complaining, and saying both puppies are "dominant" and "aggressive" ... etc.

Pretty funny I must say...
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