feedback on true haus and weberhaus breeders and pups please - Page 9 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #81 of 91 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mycobraracr View Post
I'm a little jaded on this side of the conversation as well since I train dogs for a living and specialize in aggression cases. I have a house full of them right now. Dogs that other trainers say to put down. In most cases, it's not the dogs that are the issue.
Im guessing they had countless decades of experience with dogs both the trainers and the owners, lol. One has to be smarter then the dog that one is sent. Many times they are not.

Of course theres issues, but often its also due to people deep in over there head who improperly handled issues presented by the dog or allowed certain behavior to fester out the gate. Since feeling are the facts in todays world its easier to blame the breeder and the dog.

Of course there is genetic issue but theres plenty of mistakes made as well, figuring which is which is pretty impossible without pet owner and dog in front of you and then the history.
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post #82 of 91 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 03:18 PM
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Mycobar's dog has some of the same lines that were in your True Haus puppy (Lewis Malatesta, Ernst vom Weinbergblick, plus, of course, Troll, Yoschy and other descendants of Fero.)

Due to a bad experience with a dog I co-owned with these same lines, I wouldn't touch either of these dogs with a 10 foot pole!

I know others who have had similar experiences with dogs out of Ernst and Lewis. It all depends on how the genetic dice sort themselves out, as has been said earlier. What looks fantastic on paper may be an absolute nightmare in real life.

In the case of the dog I co-owned, she was female aggressive. One day when she got out of her kennel and latched onto another female, it took 15 minutes before the other owner was able to get her to release her grip.

Once she had puppies, she went entirely nuts. She would NOT stop pacing, even when turned out in a 8,000 square foot pen. She would constantly spin and pace in her indoor kennel, and as a result it was impossible to keep any weight on her. Even at 12 cups of food a day, you could count every rib. Test were done for epi, worms, etc. but no physical cause could be found for either the excessive pacing or the weight loss.

She was eventually returned to her original owner (not the breeder) and I lost track of what happened to her after that.

[apologies for going OT again, but this reinforces an important point made elsewhere about picking dogs based on pedigrees alone!]
This is exactly it.

Well said.
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post #83 of 91 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 04:43 PM
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It's not about any specific dogs in the pedigree, but how they are balanced out in other areas. So saying a dog has X in their pedigree is important, but where that dog is balanced out is also important. We have to look at the pedigree as a whole, not just the five key dogs we recognize. The same lines you brought up. That's because our dogs have the same sire. He's got one of the best temperaments I've ever met. Very powerful dog, very social dog. Trialed not only in bite sports but super crowded and chaotic AKC events. Things like that. Personally, I think too many want to blame genetics now days for lack of training. We have to remember what the intentions of these dogs are. I'm a little jaded on this side of the conversation as well since I train dogs for a living and specialize in aggression cases. I have a house full of them right now. Dogs that other trainers say to put down. In most cases, it's not the dogs that are the issue.
You raise a good point. And it has been my experience that sometimes, some dogs just don't work well for some people.
I think when people look at pedigrees they forget that these are not cell phones with specific features but live, thinking creatures.
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post #84 of 91 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
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Hi everyone, while this did go a little off topic, I really appreciate everyone's input. It's quite helpful to get the feedback, both positive and negative, and gives me a lot to consider as I make my decision. Thanks again.
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post #85 of 91 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 12:22 PM
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Im guessing they had countless decades of experience with dogs both the trainers and the owners, lol. One has to be smarter then the dog that one is sent. Many times they are not.

Of course theres issues, but often its also due to people deep in over there head who improperly handled issues presented by the dog or allowed certain behavior to fester out the gate. Since feeling are the facts in todays world its easier to blame the breeder and the dog.

Of course there is genetic issue but theres plenty of mistakes made as well, figuring which is which is pretty impossible without pet owner and dog in front of you and then the history.
Exactly! I have a dog here for training right now that a girl imported from Germany to do sport with. She is having all sorts of issues with the dog so sent it to me for training. I was told that this dog is crazy high drive and her club says it's crazy for a GSD. IMO, the dog is easy. Not over the top in any way. Drives are decent, but nothing even close to over the top. She just happens to be too much dog for this particular person.

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You raise a good point. And it has been my experience that sometimes, some dogs just don't work well for some people.
I think when people look at pedigrees they forget that these are not cell phones with specific features but live, thinking creatures.


Yes! We all have our favorite flavors so to speak. Even my wife and I have different taste in our dogs. Oddly enough, my wife likes the over the top drivey A-Hole dogs. Her personality handling and training style suit that. I prefer the more balanced thinking dogs. My go everywhere do everything dog.

I ended up buying one of my puppies back for this very reason. The person who bought her said she had loads of experience and wanted a high drive female for sport. So that's what I sent her. Long story short, she couldn't handle the dog. I laughed when the transporter dropped her off at my house. He just looked at me and said "too much dog for her huh". He liked her. She's with a new owner now. A college kid who's putting the time in. He sends me pictures of all their adventures. Going hiking, fishing, doing bite work, her hanging out with other dogs, kids and so on. She's now living the life she deserves. So yes, sometimes the dog and human just don't click to no fault of there own.

Here she is with her new person.
image1 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
image2 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
image3 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
image4 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr

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post #86 of 91 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 01:23 PM
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@mycobraracr I LIKE the thinking, balanced, go anywhere dogs. I seem to get stuck with the other kind. And they work for me!? It's all very weird. I always get stuck with the ones no one wants, the ones the trainers give up on.
Bud was an A-hole, all his life. No one could deal with him, he put a well known, very experience trainer on a table and when I muzzled him he just turned himself into a battering ram. But as long as I handled him he was a Rockstar. He gave me competition level obedience with all kinds of flash, he loved to work and he did protection with speed and power. He was washed for no out. (Because in his mind I guess if you were a threat to me he just needed to take you out forever.)
By the way I love your dogs and you need to give us many more. And pictures!
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post #87 of 91 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 04:18 PM
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@mycobraracr I LIKE the thinking, balanced, go anywhere dogs. I seem to get stuck with the other kind. And they work for me!? It's all very weird. I always get stuck with the ones no one wants, the ones the trainers give up on.
Bud was an A-hole, all his life. No one could deal with him, he put a well known, very experience trainer on a table and when I muzzled him he just turned himself into a battering ram. But as long as I handled him he was a Rockstar. He gave me competition level obedience with all kinds of flash, he loved to work and he did protection with speed and power. He was washed for no out. (Because in his mind I guess if you were a threat to me he just needed to take you out forever.)
By the way I love your dogs and you need to give us many more. And pictures!

Haha sounds like a fun dog.

I'll take my Kimbers any day of the week. She just does what I do. When it's time to work, she's as serious as they come. Everyone who has seen us is in love with her. A couple years ago I was teaching a decoy seminar and brought her out for a couple guys to work. One guys was struggling with some things and got a little down on his confidence one day, so I told him that before he went home for the night he needed to work my dog. Kimber is very serious, but, she super consistent and safe. She knows what to do and will do it no matter what you're doing. After that guy worked her, another guys asked if her could work her too. So he did. The second decoy turned to me and said "your dog is awesome, but she's crazy and I could never live with a dog like that." A few months later, that same guy came out to California with his wife and four kids. They stayed with my wife and I for a few days. While he was here, he said after seeing Kimber in the house and on a training field, he wouldn't believe it was the same dog. I said "exactly, she knows when to turn it on and turn it off." If you've seen the picture I post of the two boys on the couch with her, that's his two boys haha. A week later his wife called me and said they needed one of her puppies. They got a pup out of the 'A' litter. Kimber is the dog I like. Can hold her own in anything we do. She's just happy and content to do what I'm doing. Whether that's watching TV, doing bite work, nose work, mountain biking or even just going on a road trip. She doesn't care. She doesn't need to be entertained or train constantly. Like I've said she's my one in a million. Her progeny seem to be turning out very much the same.
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post #88 of 91 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 10:38 AM
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@Seer, not sure if it's the same study Jax08 knows about, but here's the Tufts/Harvard/MIT team involved in a genetic investigation of bloat:
https://now.tufts.edu/articles/genetics-bloat


Work identifying the genetic component actually started in the 1990s (see part 4 of the Purdue study):
https://www.instituteofcaninebiology...due-study.html

Seer, it's not just your perception -- researchers noticed what you did about it running in families. Research published in the the early 2000s demonstrated that having a first-degree relative that had bloated was a significant risk factor in predicting bloat:
AKC Canine Health Foundation

@raff, I recommend you do more reading on the state of bloat research -- it's still correlative (not causative), but the statistical correlations for heredity are actually one of the strongest predictors yet found in the research. You may think it's "absurd," but I think your argument seems it's with the bloat researchers at Purdue and Tufts who've been working on figuring bloat out for 20 years. If you do a search on bloat causes in the forum, I've linked to sources summarizing the research in another thread -- including what they found about ever-present myths about activity before/after eating, elevated bowls, etc. The results surprise many people.

ETA: @raff, here's the post where I have the summary of the research I'm aware of. When you ask for research on this forum, you may very likely get it...
https://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ml#post9027697
Where did I say a genetic component to bloat is “absurd”?

In fact, what I said was that pretty much every trait has genetic components. The study of genetics is not a simple science. If it were, a lot of problems would have been bred out long ago.

At least you are honest enough to make the distinction between correlation and causality.

If the research has been ongoing since 1990, and still no firm conclusion has been established, it points in the direction of more research into environmental factors being necessary.

That is *not* a mandate to shut down research into the genetics. Both issues can be studied at the same time.

Also, it’s very helpful when we define our terms. To clarify, are we only discussing *bloat*; are we including *gastric torsion*, or are both being investigated together?

It’s not at all simple.
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post #89 of 91 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mycobraracr View Post
Exactly! I have a dog here for training right now that a girl imported from Germany to do sport with. She is having all sorts of issues with the dog so sent it to me for training. I was told that this dog is crazy high drive and her club says it's crazy for a GSD. IMO, the dog is easy. Not over the top in any way. Drives are decent, but nothing even close to over the top. She just happens to be too much dog for this particular person.











Yes! We all have our favorite flavors so to speak. Even my wife and I have different taste in our dogs. Oddly enough, my wife likes the over the top drivey A-Hole dogs. Her personality handling and training style suit that. I prefer the more balanced thinking dogs. My go everywhere do everything dog.



I ended up buying one of my puppies back for this very reason. The person who bought her said she had loads of experience and wanted a high drive female for sport. So that's what I sent her. Long story short, she couldn't handle the dog. I laughed when the transporter dropped her off at my house. He just looked at me and said "too much dog for her huh". He liked her. She's with a new owner now. A college kid who's putting the time in. He sends me pictures of all their adventures. Going hiking, fishing, doing bite work, her hanging out with other dogs, kids and so on. She's now living the life she deserves. So yes, sometimes the dog and human just don't click to no fault of there own.



Here she is with her new person.

image1 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr

image2 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr

image3 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr

image4 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr


Yeah you are lucky you have prodigy of your Kimber it will help when that dreadful time comes. I know I will not be the same when that day comes there are some big paws to fill. not sure if that can be done. It’s a gift to have that kind of special bond and I enjoy when people speak of it. I have to say she is a beauty and love the photos with the Chihuahua and child! Glad your pup found a forever home!


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post #90 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 08:40 AM
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A lot of the arguing going on here would make some sense if genetics was an exact science. It’s not. If it were, we would have seen the last of HD and other health problems generations ago.

To attempt to isolate a simple genetic cause/effect in response to the research question, “what causes bloat”?, is extremely naive.

If there is a suspected genetic component to any trait/disorder, it is more likely than not influenced by more than just one simple genetic mutation that can somehow be removed from the gene pool. Or a mutation that will inherit in some sort of predictable straight line process. These things are multifactoral.

To assume it’s possible to exclude the impact of environmental influences also makes no sense.

Dogs don’t live in isolation tanks.

Part of conducting a valid study requires controlling for as many extraneous variables as possible. If your subjects are dogs living in home environments, there will be a nearly unlimited number of extraneous variables for which you can’t control.

The study can control for things like breed, age, size, and general health, along with what’s known of the ancestors. But, then you’re doing breed specific research. How do you then generalize that to the total dog population?

To simplify; you always begin a research project with a research question. When it’s one as big as “what causes bloat”, or “is bloat genetic”, the difficulties is setting up your study are legion. (Actual research questions are typically much more refined, of course); unless your subjects live out their lives in research labs under tightly controlled circumstances.

Any study of bloat will have to be longitudinal. No valid conclusions can be reached unless the subjects are followed throughout their lives.

Again, there is no way to control for all of the variables that will impinge on the subjects outside of the lab setting.

The only way to counterbalance this effect is via replication studies. And, you certainly want to look for large sample sizes.

Not all studies are created equal.

Again, it’s telling, but, not surprising, that after nearly 30 years of research, there is still no firm conclusion from the people who actually understand what they’re talking about.

Because of the speed with which technology is advancing, we will probably know a lot more in the near future.

None of this should be construed to suggest that bloat does not have genetic components. I would offer that many factors about any individual dog that are heritable make certain dogs more bloat prone.

Ideally, researchers will ultimately identify the combinations of genetic and environmental factors that set up the highest risks that whatever genetic mutations may be involved are most likely to manifest. Once we know that, breeders can incorporate the information into their breeding decisions.

The takeaway should be that when you examine a phenomenon as complex as bloat, there is no simple genetic on/off, yes/no switch.
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