Looking for West/DDR mix breeder (Canada/Germany) - Page 4 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 58Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #31 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 09:22 AM
Crowned Member
 
Nigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Washington St.
Posts: 6,883
I found this thread and it has a wealth of information on Lord and is helping me to better understand my question.

https://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...edigree-3.html

My male has Lord, but he is a ways back. He also has a fading reverse mask.
kimbale likes this.
Nigel is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 12:34 PM
Crowned Member
 
wolfstraum's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 11,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
How much can Lord "add" being so far back? Does his progeny possess and pass on his traits? Wouldnt his traits become watered down after a number of generations?

Look up the term "prepotent" - why do certain dogs (and horses!) become "famous" and sought after and cited over and over again even when they are long dead? Linebreeding and backmassing bring forward the stronger genetics and qualities that famous dogs were known to produce and why they are sought after. Yoshey, Crok and Asko v d Lutter are famous - and their genetics are still strong in both positive and negatives 3-7 generations out. Read pedigree analysis articles on Thoroughbred racehorses....there are certain physical aspects 8-10 generations out still obvious....the crooked front legs of Mr. P for example.

When you start to see specific characteristics in pups that indicate the genetic influence of a dog not a parent, you are seeing prepotency....I am seeing it in my male Komet - he is producing his mother....a litter linebred on her, by him, is uncanny for it's resemblence to her....it will be interesting to see if it carries through a few more generations if I last that long!

Lee
lhczth, cliffson1, Seer and 4 others like this.

Hexe Sch2, Komet & Kougar IPO1, Kira HGH, SG Bengal, Lynx v Wolfstraum ~ Ziberia IPO1 ~ ATB Basha, Kougar & Kyra, Fenja, Sch3s, Cito, Sch2, DangerRH, Csabre & Alice Sch1s ~Kelsey
wolfstraum.net
wolfstraum is online now  
post #33 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 12:56 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 171
Wolfstraum, you're right, in my horse world, we can look at many well bred horses and identify the ancestor from many

generations back; sometimes it's the movement, sometimes conformation and sometimes just outward looks.. Plus the value of most well bred horses is in what they produce or how well they re-produce the

great traits. Many expensive breeding stallions have been deemed 'flops' because they don't produce the good traits

even though they themselves had the good traits.
wolfstraum likes this.
Orphan Heidi is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 02:12 PM
Crowned Member
 
cliffson1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
I found this thread and it has a wealth of information on Lord and is helping me to better understand my question.

https://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...edigree-3.html

My male has Lord, but he is a ways back. He also has a fading reverse mask.
This goes back to a time when there were numerous individuals that posted that had in-depth knowledge on lines, training, pedigrees and dogs. The reverse mask is definitely a trait that Lord passed, which he inherited from Ingo v Rudigan. When I see a working line dog with a reverse mask probably 80% of time you find Lord or Ingo in the pedigree. Coincidence? Sure to some! But it’s pretty reliable to me��*♀️. He passed this to many of his progeny including the granddaughter I had from him.
Anyway, I don’t want to belabor this topic, because people are more interested these days in cosmetic aspects of the breed. And I don’t mean that disparaging because it takes commitment to train, or go to trial and shows, so that first hand experiences and knowledge can be attained.
It’s much easier to learn from internet these days!
lhczth likes this.
cliffson1 is offline  
post #35 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 03:41 PM
Crowned Member
 
Jax08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NNE PA
Posts: 29,526
Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffson1 View Post
When I see a working line dog with a reverse mask probably 80% of time you find Lord or Ingo in the pedigree. Coincidence? Sure to some! But itís pretty reliable to me��*♀️. He passed this to many of his progeny including the granddaughter I had from him.
Sure enough....9 generations back from my puppy, whose sire has a reverse mask, is Ingo.




Jax08 is offline  
post #36 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 09:40 PM
Crowned Member
 
Nigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Washington St.
Posts: 6,883
@cliffson1 Some folks live in areas with limited resources and little access to knowledgable people, the interwebs are much of what I have to draw from. I've gained a lot from these discussions and appreciate what you and others share, I'm sure others do as well.

@wolfstraum is Mr P = Mr prospector? Ive read several pages about him and can understand better what you're saying (prepotency). Still, after so many generations of pairings, each with different genetic material, won't inbreeding at this point bring forward other traits as well?

I'm not sure if this question will make sense, but Lord having prepotency, will there be less risk line breeding on him because of this.
MineAreWorkingline likes this.
Nigel is offline  
post #37 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 09:55 PM
Elite Member
 
Hineni7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: NE WA (state)
Posts: 1,827
I think of breeding as kind of a chemistry set.. With some unknown chemicals (genes). You blend what you know works to give you the desired result (chemical), however, with other unknowns mixed in, sometimes you don't get all of what you expected. But as you learn what mixes well with each other, you get better at mixing safe/functional chemicals (puppies)... Odd analogy, but it works..
wolfstraum and Femfa like this.
Hineni7 is offline  
post #38 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 10:50 PM
Crowned Member
 
wolfstraum's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 11,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
@cliffson1 Some folks live in areas with limited resources and little access to knowledgable people, the interwebs are much of what I have to draw from. I've gained a lot from these discussions and appreciate what you and others share, I'm sure others do as well.

@wolfstraum is Mr P = Mr prospector? Ive read several pages about him and can understand better what you're saying (prepotency). Still, after so many generations of pairings, each with different genetic material, won't inbreeding at this point bring forward other traits as well?

I'm not sure if this question will make sense, but Lord having prepotency, will there be less risk line breeding on him because of this.


Yes - Mr P is Mr Prospector - good catch!

At this point, breeding on Lord is usually going to be back massing - ie dogs in 5th or further back who are line bred on him, and
it is not really a matter of risk...the factors he brings to the table are known and these characteristics are more positives and desireable. My Kyra was 2-5,5 on Lord....and so my Rs are backmassed 5, 8, 8 - 6, 9, 9 I think...and several are already reporting their surprise at the hunt drive and tracking ability
Nigel likes this.

Hexe Sch2, Komet & Kougar IPO1, Kira HGH, SG Bengal, Lynx v Wolfstraum ~ Ziberia IPO1 ~ ATB Basha, Kougar & Kyra, Fenja, Sch3s, Cito, Sch2, DangerRH, Csabre & Alice Sch1s ~Kelsey
wolfstraum.net
wolfstraum is online now  
post #39 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-22-2019, 08:27 AM
Crowned Member
 
cliffson1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
@cliffson1 Some folks live in areas with limited resources and little access to knowledgable people, the interwebs are much of what I have to draw from. I've gained a lot from these discussions and appreciate what you and others share, I'm sure others do as well.

@wolfstraum is Mr P = Mr prospector? Ive read several pages about him and can understand better what you're saying (prepotency). Still, after so many generations of pairings, each with different genetic material, won't inbreeding at this point bring forward other traits as well?

I'm not sure if this question will make sense, but Lord having prepotency, will there be less risk line breeding on him because of this.
Nigel, I understand! But do you know how much information on internet comes from people who read something and run with it ....from people who donít have experience, or knowledge based on first hand circumstances? Do you know how much line, kennel, show, and sport bias enter into information passed on Internet.
Look I understand for the average pet owner there is no need to do the things I mentioned, and thatís cool, but often they will be the first people to give some advice on a subject to others( especially newbies on internet) and where did they get this advice or knowledge from?
As for Lord, and your question, the issue isnít whether his prepotency makes him a better or lesser risk to breed. You linebreed for different reasons, but it always has to be done with three bases of knowledge; (1 to strengthen positive traits, (2 to understand the negative traits that will be strengthened, (3 to understand how the rest of the pedigree will assimilate your linebreeding.
Most people do the positive equation, few do the negative one. Thatís why I often tell people that some of the alltime great dogs I like to see in a pedigree once, but not linebred or in pedigree more than once.
Example: Two great dogs I know,( whose names both start with T, one West German and one Slovak), both produced tremendous nerve, power, heart, strength, and fight......but both produced high incidences of missing testicles. So I love seeing them in a pedigree once because that can be compensated for with knowledge of other dogs in pedigree and they bring so much good. BUT, I would never linebreed on them because it will be many many generations to lessen that missing testicles aspect once you linebreed on these dogs even as distant as 5-5 linebreeding.
So with Lord, there are pedigrees he is an asset in linebred state, but in some pedigrees he wouldnít be asset.
I hope this makes sense.
wolfstraum, Nigel and Sunsilver like this.
cliffson1 is offline  
post #40 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-22-2019, 04:23 PM
Crowned Member
 
Nigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Washington St.
Posts: 6,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffson1 View Post
Nigel, I understand! But do you know how much information on internet comes from people who read something and run with it ....from people who donít have experience, or knowledge based on first hand circumstances? Do you know how much line, kennel, show, and sport bias enter into information passed on Internet.
Look I understand for the average pet owner there is no need to do the things I mentioned, and thatís cool, but often they will be the first people to give some advice on a subject to others( especially newbies on internet) and where did they get this advice or knowledge from?
As for Lord, and your question, the issue isnít whether his prepotency makes him a better or lesser risk to breed. You linebreed for different reasons, but it always has to be done with three bases of knowledge; (1 to strengthen positive traits, (2 to understand the negative traits that will be strengthened, (3 to understand how the rest of the pedigree will assimilate your linebreeding.
Most people do the positive equation, few do the negative one. Thatís why I often tell people that some of the alltime great dogs I like to see in a pedigree once, but not linebred or in pedigree more than once.
Example: Two great dogs I know,( whose names both start with T, one West German and one Slovak), both produced tremendous nerve, power, heart, strength, and fight......but both produced high incidences of missing testicles. So I love seeing them in a pedigree once because that can be compensated for with knowledge of other dogs in pedigree and they bring so much good. BUT, I would never linebreed on them because it will be many many generations to lessen that missing testicles aspect once you linebreed on these dogs even as distant as 5-5 linebreeding.
So with Lord, there are pedigrees he is an asset in linebred state, but in some pedigrees he wouldnít be asset.
I hope this makes sense.
This is a perfect explanation actually and clears up my confusion. I may not need this information for breeding purposes, however Iíd like to understand why breeding choices are made and the pros and cons of those choices. Iím hoping this will help my knowledge of the dogs themselves and in selecting my next pup.

You are correct on ďrepeatedĒ knowledge and the need to know whoís giving it. 6 years ago when a family member went to purchase a wl gsd pup the supposed hobby breeder knew all the right things to say and was very believable. We lucked out and heís a nice dog, but in reality it was a gamble.
Nigel is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Finding a suitable breeder VomKlaus Choosing A Breeder 55 03-29-2016 07:19 AM
Searching for right breeder in Central New Jersey Kedyr Choosing A Breeder 58 01-14-2013 12:49 PM
What makes a successful breeder in YOUR eyes? GSD Fan General Information 6 08-31-2011 04:44 PM
difference betweeen a puppy mill and commercial kennel sagelfn Breeding - General 110 10-26-2010 02:18 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome