Breeding - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 14Likes
  • 3 Post By wolfstraum
  • 4 Post By Kazel
  • 2 Post By tc68
  • 2 Post By selzer
  • 3 Post By rotdocpa1
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 08:36 PM Thread Starter
New Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 1
Breeding

I am new to this forum and this is my first post. I have a 7 year old female Shepherd I would like to breed. I am new to this as well. The Vet said she is healthy and could have pups. Any suggestions on a breeder and how to get started would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Bclem is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 09:44 PM
Crowned Member
 
wolfstraum's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 11,091
7 years is a middle aged to senior dog ...... too old to breed for the first litter - at 7 most people are retiring their breeding females. Are you willing to risk her dying whelping a litter?



Lee
lhczth, Sabis mom and kimbale like this.

Hexe Sch2, Komet & Kougar IPO1, Kira HGH, SG Bengal, Lynx v Wolfstraum ~ Ziberia IPO1 ~ ATB Basha, Kougar & Kyra, Fenja, Sch3s, Cito, Sch2, DangerRH, Csabre & Alice Sch1s ~Kelsey
wolfstraum.net
wolfstraum is online now  
post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 10:28 PM
Senior Member
 
Kazel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Northwest United States
Posts: 460
My advice would be to not breed this dog. I would keep looking for a breeder and maybe look for somebody to mentor you. You might be able to find somebody willing to co-own females and teach you after you've gotten to know them. As wolfstraum said 7 years old is not a good age for a litter. My Grandmother had a breeding female who due to an actual accident got pregnant after she had been retired at about 8. Only one puppy in the litter survived and the birth was brutal on her. We're lucky she made it and we were getting ready to make a vet visit once my dad got off work but she was done by the time he was able to get home. (I was too young to take her, and nobody knew she was pregnant so bad situation all around.)


So I would take a raincheck, get a new dog in the future to breed and be prepared when that time comes. This forum has a lot of good information you can learn from. There is so much that goes into breeding a female and emergency c-setions are a thing and could cost you a couple grand in vet bills along with potentially losing mom and/or the pups. Additionally if this is your first litter you could miss signs that she's having trouble and not know until it's too late. You'll also have to make sure she's getting the proper food, that you have a whelping crate set up. Has she been tested for brucellosis? That's something that should be done before breeding on both male and female just off the top of my head. You should also have other health testing such as rated hips x-rays. There are just so many things to do before you should even think about actually finding a stud and breeding that as much as you may love this dog you really should probably not do it.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Kazel is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 10:51 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 460
1)I'm more worried about the fact that your vet said it was ok to breed her. I hope he/she said it's possible but recommended that you don't.

2) not to mention the backyard breeder angle.
Sabis mom and kimbale like this.
tc68 is offline  
post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-10-2019, 12:19 AM
Crowned Member
 
selzer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Denmark, Ohio
Posts: 31,499
My Lassie just turned six on the 12th of March. I rehomed her a few days earlier, as she had not had puppies yet, and it was just better all around, for her, for the new people and for me. She is healthy. But the rule of thumb is that 5 is as old as you should go for a first litter. Beyond that complications are much more likely.

Now, a lot of show people don't want to breed their bitches until their show careers are over. In a seminar with Dr. Hutchison, they discussed some type of drops they were able to give their bitches that would protect their plumbing so that when they did breed for the first time, later on, the uterine horns would not be as battered or as full of fibrous tumors, that could create complications.

Now, here's the thing. Bitches are not like humans. They go into heat twice a year for three weeks or so. And during that time, and for the weeks after, their system acts the same whether pregnancy happens or not. That is the progesterone batters the uterine horns the same if the bitch is pregnant as if she isn't. So by 7 years, that means 12-13 heat cycles, where in actuality, the bitch might be even healthier in her reproductive system had she been bred, because that is natural, and the puppies attaching to the uterine horns, and placentas and fluid being expelled, during the process might actually make it less likely for fibrous tumors or other abnormalities to occur. For instance pyometra -- with passing age, the likelihood that material remains in the uterine horns beyond the heat cycle and becomes infected.

In short, I am all for breeding, but not breeding a 7 year old girl for the first time.

And, unless your vet is a reproductive vet, than I would not take their advice on this. Your average veterinarian nowadays do not see enough bitches whelping and raising litters. They simply may not know that it is too late to breed a bitch this old. The vast majority of the pets they see have been spayed or neutered, probably by them, so their expertise is waning, from vets, 20-30 years ago. I am not suggesting they do not understand the mechanics and could not provide help, but they probably have never dealt with a bitch being bred for the first time at 7 years, because most pet people spay bitches -- why deal with heat cycles? And most breeders do not breed a bitch for the first time that late.
wolfy dog and Sunsilver like this.

Heidi Ho, Odie
Joy-Joy, Bear Cub, Hepsi-Pepsi
Cujo2, Karma Chameleon
Ramona the Pest, Kojak -- who loves you baby?
Tiny Tinnie, Susie's Uzzi, Kaiah -- The Baby Monster.
selzer is offline  
post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-10-2019, 08:58 AM
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 17
Veterinarian here. Would encourage you to re-think this. While she may do fine there are increased complications at that age. Also have you xrayed her hips and elbows yet?Please keep in mind the cost. These days very few practices will see after hour emergencies and send everything with complications to the emergency clinic. I do relief work and can tell you that many clinics refer any complications or even end of day emergencies out. If you go to an ES you will likely be looking at 1500-2000 for a C-section. If that is any way a hardship for you don't do it. German Shepherd puppies are difficult to place in appropriate homes as well and you could end with 10 pups you have difficulty selling.
wolfy dog, Pawsed and kimbale like this.
rotdocpa1 is online now  
post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 01:19 AM
Crowned Member
 
selzer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Denmark, Ohio
Posts: 31,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotdocpa1 View Post
Veterinarian here. Would encourage you to re-think this. While she may do fine there are increased complications at that age. Also have you xrayed her hips and elbows yet?Please keep in mind the cost. These days very few practices will see after hour emergencies and send everything with complications to the emergency clinic. I do relief work and can tell you that many clinics refer any complications or even end of day emergencies out. If you go to an ES you will likely be looking at 1500-2000 for a C-section. If that is any way a hardship for you don't do it. German Shepherd puppies are difficult to place in appropriate homes as well and you could end with 10 pups you have difficulty selling.

Yeah, well, we have a 24 hour clinic that has a reproductive specialist, as well as many other specialists, and I would be happy for my regular vet to send me there for complications. The problem is that it is over 2 hours away.

Believe it or not the C-section at my regular vet is every bit as expensive as the one at the 24-hour clinic that has repro specialists. And at that vet, I can watch the procedure and work on the puppies the moment they are removed from the uterine horns. My regular vet is like, "No." Whatever. And, my regular vet does not even have an incubator. So, if you take a puppy up there that is not thriving, (they are just four miles from my home), they will warm the puppy with sub-cutaneous fluids (not good) and by keeping them in a box with warming bottles/packs. Which is not the end of the world, but they used to have an incubator and it is no longer protocol -- not enough pet owners ever have puppies. So regular vets are just not as prepared as they used to be. They will warm a two day old puppy to over 100 degrees. Not good. The puppy should be no more than 97 degrees.

And, they don't have a lab. So, to do that C-section we're talking about, they have to send out a progesterone test, and get the answer tomorrow. But if you waited for your bitch to have puppies naturally (ideal), then you have complications, straining, no puppies, or exhaustion -- no longer trying, then you don't have time to wait until tomorrow, your bitch will die. So they do the C-section. But if your bitch's puppies are not ready -- they are only incubating for 9 weeks total, so if you are a week early, then your puppies probably won't make it. Even if your bitch goes into labor early, if they do progesterone, and she should not be ready yet, they can give them something to try to prevent the puppies from coming to early, IF you are with someone who does this for their main deal.

Your average veterinarian, the guy/gal on the corner, they have to know about LOTS of things. They have to be surgeons, and they have to do cats, dogs, fish, birds, horses, cows, sheep, chickens, parakeets, etc. Jack of all trades, master of none. Which is not quite true. They have a lot of education, and they often have a ton of experience, and a goodly amount of common sense. Expecting them to understand specifics of one dog breed, whelping, neonatal puppy raising and such, is probably unrealistic. Like the vet above: have you checked hips and elbows? Yeah, 10 years ago hips and elbows would be the most concerning. But now its DM has your bitch been checked for DM, Hips and Elbows should be checked, yes, but so should Cardiac, and Cerf-testing (eyes). I am not even worried about hips an elbows at this point, what you really need to know about your lines is whether there is MegaE, EPI, SIBO, Pannus, Epilepsy -- these are heart breakers.

Which leads into the next thing you should ask yourself. Yeah, yeah, you can have 10 puppies that might be difficult to home. Not too worried about that. With such an old bitch having a first litter, chances are the puppies will have trouble connecting to the uterine walls, and so instead of a litter of seven you have a litter of one or two. And they grow BIG in there, and you do need a C-section. But let's say it is an average litter of 7 puppies. You have ten families waiting in line for them, so you pick the best 7 and they take their puppy and you're done, right?

Errrrh! One of your puppy-buyers calls to let you know that their vet found a heart murmur. Another brings the pup back because it barked at his adult children who does live there. One waits six months and brings the puppy back because they've injured the dog and pretty much let their kid torment the puppy until he is kind of afraid of it. When they are 9 months old, they let you know that the puppy is barking at people, what should they do. When they are 18 months old, or three years old, someone has to move and need you to take back the puppy.

Or, maybe they don't want to give you the puppy back, maybe their puppy is showing some symptom of something, and they are calling you to ask what it is. They call from the ER, saying that they want to spay their bitch they think it is pyometra. So you ask them what the symptoms are, and out of your head, though you have never dealt with pyo before, it doesn't sound like pyo to you, so you KNOW where THEY should take their dog at that hour where they live. I've actually been there and done that. And had they spayed that bitch at the ER, they would have threatened her with an unnecessary surgery, because the bitch had a blockage, not pyo. I got the people to take her to the 24 hour clinic I spoke of above. And they quickly determined it was not pyo, and were able to help the bitch.

But, most of the time, folks will call you, and you will give them your best advice, and they will generally throw it out the window and go with whatever their vet says. And, you know your lines and know what they need, but you tell your buyers what training they should do, how to socialize, what not to do, and you can pretty much guaranty that some of them will do the exact opposite and then blame you.

Puppies are cute and fun. But breeding is neither. It is stinky, sticky, messy, and heart-breaking at times. There is nothing better than seeing a puppy that you helped deliver begin to breathe and cry out, to smell puppy breath and to watch them gain weight before your eyes. It is hard when a puppy you've been struggling with for 2-3 days finally succumb. Losing 2-3 puppies in a litter is excruciatingly painful. It is not for the feint of heart. You will love each puppy and have to be able to give each of them up, and have to be civil to some yayhoo who wants to barter about the cost and how much the puppies are down the street. Creating a litter of puppies is science and art and religion, and someone comes along and says, "oh, their big." The next person says, "they're kind of small." And that you can take, but when they say they do not like something about their looks or structure or temperament, it can be like a slight on you. It is worse than them telling you, "Gee, you're fat." It is more like them telling you that your kid has a funny nose, or ugly ears, or is too fat, or too thin, or is mean spirited. Only they are a whole lot more likely to say that about a puppy.

Ah well, it is late. Breeding GSDs is life. And you HAVE to like people, because breeding is mostly about people, dealing with people. If you don't like people get your animals altered and do not breed whatever you do.

Heidi Ho, Odie
Joy-Joy, Bear Cub, Hepsi-Pepsi
Cujo2, Karma Chameleon
Ramona the Pest, Kojak -- who loves you baby?
Tiny Tinnie, Susie's Uzzi, Kaiah -- The Baby Monster.
selzer is offline  
post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 08:49 AM
Crowned Member
 
Sunflowers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,067
At 7, she is too old for a first litter. Also, I am surprised the vet hasn’t suggested spaying at this point.
Here is a great thread. Take the time and read it, lots of great insight here:
https://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...need-know.html


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Norden von Narnia (Hans) DOB 1-15-12
Sunflowers is offline  
post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 09:38 AM
Crowned Member
 
Sabis mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 4,256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunflowers View Post
At 7, she is too old for a first litter. Also, I am surprised the vet hasnít suggested spaying at this point.
Here is a great thread. Take the time and read it, lots of great insight here:
https://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...need-know.html
I was curious as well. I know of no vet that would suggest breeding a 7 year old bitch for the first time was healthy.
Every vet I have ever spoken to has recommended that if the bitch isn't bred by 5 she should be spayed to prevent ANY possibility of an oops that could prove complicated or fatal.
Sabis mom is online now  
post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 11:11 AM
Master Member
 
kimbale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Ft. Worth, TX
Posts: 514
Breeding is really a sub-specialty of veterinary medicine, and not all vets are up-to-date on the latest information and knowledge within that speciality. If you really want a good recommendation regarding breeding from a vet, go to a reproductive vet who specifically specializes in canines. Have you asked your vet if they recommend breeding your dog? Saying a dog is healthy and COULD have pups is not the same as saying she is breeding quality and SHOULD have pups. If you are honestly interested in breeding and doing it correctly, take a look around this forum for lots of great advice on how to do it right and to give the pups you produce the best chance at a healthy life. There is a lot more to breeding than just throwing two dogs together. There is health testing, temperament proofing and you also need to take a hard and honest look at your lifestyle and your finances to see if having pups is something feasible for you. A litter of pups can get very costly, especially if there are issues during the birth.

If you are interesting in breeding, read up about it on this forum, find a mentor and invest in a breeding quality dog. Don't put the health of the pups you produce at risk because you want to do something, but wont take the steps to do it right.

MacKenzie - Workling Line Female (In Loving Memory)
Wolfram - West German Showline Male [SG1, CGC, DDN, CN, EN, IN, VN]
Bash - Working Line Puppy
kimbale is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Breeding Info Richmond Custodio Thinking About Becoming A Breeder? 28 10-30-2017 05:18 PM
What eliminates a dog from breeding? cliffson1 Breeding - General 160 05-29-2017 11:14 AM
Interested in Breeding, What does a good breeder need to know? Myobu Thinking About Becoming A Breeder? 9 10-30-2016 08:57 PM
What line does she look like? Niexist The Breed Standard 58 07-09-2016 03:16 PM
What do you think of this much line breeding? robk Bloodlines & Pedigrees 7 10-12-2011 10:31 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome