To breed or not to breed that is the question - Page 12 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #111 of 166 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 02:40 PM
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The amount of GSDs who can't walk past another dog without staring/barking/lunging/pulling is ridiculous.
That is just the point: the products of byb. Any healthy GSD is active and never should or expected to be a stuffed animal that has come to life in the shape of a GSD. If you choose your breeder wisely, you will be able to find a well-bred stable dog with an off button. Sure, my life would be somewhat easier and me being lazier ( ) with them being less driven but I chose these guys because they are sound and stable. I can walk and work them anywhere between anyone and anything.
You need to study the lines before jumping into it. Unstable dogs can be the result of poor breeding, poor socialization, poor exercise, poor training or any / all of the above.
You can also end up with a lesser quality bred dog but with good management, training etc, still get a livable dog like so many others have accomplished here.
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post #112 of 166 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 02:45 PM
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A number of years ago, we had a club member with a terrible temper. I didn't see her take it out on her dog in public, but I am sure she did it in private.

She was so amped up when doing her BH that the dog could sense it and didn't want to be anywhere near her. She flunked the test because he was lagging so far behind her.

So, it's a question of how much of the stress is due to the new location of a trial, and how much is due to the dog picking up on the handler's nerves?

In the above case, it was pretty much 100% the handler's fault because she was trialing on her home club's field.
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post #113 of 166 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 02:50 PM
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Testing under that much stress in trials is overkill for most people? IMO dogs that can walk through other dogs and children without problems = good stress tolerance, and I think that is a part of common sense "well-tempered" judgment even a non expert can make. You people are professional and probably only see high standard dogs, but believe me the amount of GSDs who can't walk past another dog without staring/barking/lunging/pulling is ridiculous.
I am most certainly NOT a professional. I am a pet owner with a hobby. I am a pet owner who has owned reactive, fear aggressive dogs. My standard as a pet owner is to never have that again and to support breeders who can give me that because they have tested their stock and not just thrown together their sweet dogs who have never left their property.

If people can't be bothered to train and test to see what they have then they have no business breeding. As someone who has worked in rescue, I've seen first hand what these people are producing. You can check that snotty little assumption of yours.




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post #114 of 166 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 03:28 PM
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I am most certainly NOT a professional. I am a pet owner with a hobby. I am a pet owner who has owned reactive, fear aggressive dogs. My standard as a pet owner is to never have that again and to support breeders who can give me that because they have tested their stock and not just thrown together their sweet dogs who have never left their property.

If people can't be bothered to train and test to see what they have then they have no business breeding. As someone who has worked in rescue, I've seen first hand what these people are producing. You can check that snotty little assumption of yours.
Ok no offence intended. To me, anyone who has first hand experience with IPO is a professional, you said you tried IPO before? Also I don't mean people who breed their dogs who never go out, I mean conscientious regular people who breed that well-tempered healthy dogs who go on hikes with them, go to the parks with them, go to the beaches with them without issues. What I meant is that people like that are shamed to breed by breed elites while byb that you were referring to don't care about their reputation so they can breed like that. If only we don't shame breeding by normal good pet owners so much, those really bad breeders whose dogs barely leave property won't have as much market anymore.
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post #115 of 166 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 03:49 PM
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A lot of the highly reactive dogs I have seen are reactive because they are with owners who don’t know how to handle them. I have a legitimately weak nerved, fear aggressive dog, and he can walk through a crowd and past other dogs. It definitely does not mean he should have been bred. This is setting the bar awfully low...
Well I was just using going pass dogs as one example of the problems I see not saying that should be the only criteria I mean you know your dog is fear aggressive because it shows itself somehow in everyday life right? Owners don't need to go to trials to see if their dogs are fear aggressive, I hope at least lol. My dog is reactive too but there were people approaching me thinking I was training her to be a service dog, but I know easily she is reactive and not well-tempered because I take her to everyday places and it shows.

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If testing for stress is overkill, those people don’t need to be breeding.

Trust me when I say that walking through a crowd should be normal for *any* dog, and is tested before anything else even in competition.

I am not a professional breeder and make no profit selling litters. I just believe in thoroughly testing things that are important, further than just “she’s not reactive”.
I think testing for stress in a trial setting is important for dogs that are born to work, but for regular owners, isn't taking the dog everywhere to see their reactions enough testing for everyday stress? If the dog can handle children, visitors, skateboards, parks, pet friendly restaurants, beaches, etc. well, that is enough stress tolerance for a pet. Unfortunately, I don't see even this level of stress tolerant to be normal in GSDs

Bottom line is I think the owners should have a clear idea whether or not their dogs are well-tempered and obedient if they are good owners who take their dogs to places and they can get joint x rays done at the vet easily too. And I don't mind those people breeding their dogs to occupy the lower-price market from byb breeders who have multiple dogs and solely breed for money.
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post #116 of 166 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 04:03 PM
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Okay, guys. This is driving me crazy. Just because the two parent dogs may appear to have good temperaments and be able to handle stressful situations (meaning walking in a crowd, I guess?), DOES NOT mean the puppies will magically not have issues. That is not how genetics works.

I have kidney disease. And hypertension. And a nerve dysfunction called "dysautonomia." I was diagnosed with all three of these disease when I was 12 years old. Guess what? Neither of my parents have any of those health issues. It was a mix of genetics from both parents that caused my health issues. Having a stable adult dog absolutely does not guarantee stable puppies, which is why good breeders put so much time, money, and energy into finding out who their dog is inside and out. Only by doing that can they get a good idea of what the puppies will look like. After all that, you have to be careful about which two dogs you breed, because that mix of genetics from both parents can throw puppies with fear issues, weak nerves, etc. It is not like you can clone your one stable, adult dog and have the puppies come out the same way. That is so not how that works.

And two seemingly well behaved pets with good temperaments may not actually be as strong nerved as you think. That is what trials are for. To push them to the limit and see if they fly or fall. If you don't know what would actually happen and you breed the dog, the puppies may come out not needing to be pushed to the limit like that. Walking down the street might be enough to push them over the edge.
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post #117 of 166 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 04:07 PM
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Well I was just using going pass dogs as one example of the problems I see not saying that should be the only criteria I mean you know your dog is fear aggressive because it shows itself somehow in everyday life right? Owners don't need to go to trials to see if their dogs are fear aggressive, I hope at least lol. My dog is reactive too but there were people approaching me thinking I was training her to be a service dog, but I know easily she is reactive and not well-tempered because I take her to everyday places and it shows.



I think testing for stress in a trial setting is important for dogs that are born to work, but for regular owners, isn't taking the dog everywhere to see their reactions enough testing for everyday stress? If the dog can handle children, visitors, skateboards, parks, pet friendly restaurants, beaches, etc. well, that is enough stress tolerance for a pet. Unfortunately, I don't see even this level of stress tolerant to be normal in GSDs

Bottom line is I think the owners should have a clear idea whether or not their dogs are well-tempered and obedient if they are good owners who take their dogs to places and they can get joint x rays done at the vet easily too. And I don't mind those people breeding their dogs to occupy the lower-price market from byb breeders who have multiple dogs and solely breed for money.
Sorry, but this is a huge part of the problem. German Shepherds should be held to a higher standard when it comes to breeding, ownership and work....the utility and versatility of this breed has been degrading because of the bolded in your quote. Too many are breeding, their ego is fed, their pockets are lined and they sell to anyone. The breed can be an excellent pet, but more often than not, they are smarter than their owners with the targeted market of buying lower priced pets.
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post #118 of 166 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 04:17 PM
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It's great that two relatively new breeders are also posting.
I have respect for both @GatorDog and @mycobraracr are bringing. Versatile dogs. That can handle working in different venues.
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post #119 of 166 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 04:21 PM
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I like to see a lot of Schutzund III titled bitches in GSD bloodlines.

I would not breed my own bitch, as wonderful as she is, because she is not to standard.
She is 26" at the shoulder and her eyes are not dark as possible.
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post #120 of 166 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 04:24 PM
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Its hard to feel for someone with a reactive dog that thinks backyard breeding is ok to fill a commercial need.




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