Pedigree opinions - what should I expect? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 11:48 AM Thread Starter
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Pedigree opinions - what should I expect?

Litter from Haakon vom Mörfelder Land and Hakova von Wendelin

Hey guys, I have a male from this litter and I was hoping some of you pros out there could give me an opinion on the pedigree. I have done a lot of reading on the working czech lines, but I'm more ignorant when it comes to the WG side and why breeders might want to cross them.

Any input is appreciated! I will be checking replies
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 05:00 PM
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Can not comment much on the mothers side but I have a Gerry daughter. Gerry is the full sibling to Haakon. I assume you are looking for a schutzhund or working prospect if you are looking at this breeding? My female is a very tough, hi prey drive dog. She is not handler, food or possessive aggressive but is hard to correction and only slows down when she has a litter. Her brother is equally strong and not great with strange dogs. She is amazing in bite work with terrific grips and a long bite worthy of a national competitor. She is neutral to strangers but I don't encourage them pushing themselves on her. She is intense but probably not for a novice handler. The breeding you are looking at goes back to Larry and Bemoan Bee and will likely be very strong in temperament. My female in her first litter has 3 puppies completing training as dual purpose police dogs and the other male I kept for schutzhund(and the sire is laid back on this bunch). We love her but know she is not for everyone.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
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Can not comment much on the mothers side but I have a Gerry daughter. Gerry is the full sibling to Haakon. I assume you are looking for a schutzhund or working prospect if you are looking at this breeding? My female is a very tough, hi prey drive dog. She is not handler, food or possessive aggressive but is hard to correction and only slows down when she has a litter. Her brother is equally strong and not great with strange dogs. She is amazing in bite work with terrific grips and a long bite worthy of a national competitor. She is neutral to strangers but I don't encourage them pushing themselves on her. She is intense but probably not for a novice handler. The breeding you are looking at goes back to Larry and Bemoan Bee and will likely be very strong in temperament. My female in her first litter has 3 puppies completing training as dual purpose police dogs and the other male I kept for schutzhund(and the sire is laid back on this bunch). We love her but know she is not for everyone.
Hey, thanks for the info! Can you comment on conformation? Haakon seems a little undersized (for my preference), but he seems to be the exception in that line where most of them have that nice balanced size the WG dogs seem to have, and the czech side seems a little more on the stockier side with those big bones. I do find the blocky headed ones very handsome.

I do want a strong temp. dog with the caveat that I am a novice handler. I work as a fulltime PI and live in a "ghetto" (I like it here, but there can be unpredictable people) so I plan to train the dog in PP/security, with the next caveat that he'll still mainly be a companion dog. He'll be with me the majority of the time so my line of thinking is that just like I am trained to protect myself in the worst of situations, he should be too.

There are still the slow moments and times I am feeling lazy - I do lots of work on the computer as well. The main thing is I make my own hours though and can bring the dog with me mostly everywhere I go. A important thing for me would be the dog being willing to settle during certain situations, like if he's in the car, or needs to be crated, etc. Settling in the crate is veery important to me because I do plan to use a home crate and a travel crate a lot because I think they're super useful.

I do a bit of roadtripping, camping, and hiking so that along with work means there are lots of car rides.

And then there are the social moments so it's okay/preferable if my dog is serious and alert around strangers but I can't have a dog that is going to snarl and bark at everything that approaches.

Sorry, I suppose I should have added all of this in the OP haha.
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 10:08 PM
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She is small but pretty, about 60 lbs. Several males were large and the male I kept back is big. How old is your pup? Make sure you have good training help. I recommend you find a good schutzhund club for help.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 08:00 PM Thread Starter
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She is small but pretty, about 60 lbs. Several males were large and the male I kept back is big. How old is your pup? Make sure you have good training help. I recommend you find a good schutzhund club for help.
The pup is about 4 weeks right now so he is still with the breeders, for the moment I just have a deposit down. I have been slacking on looking into the clubs in my area but I do plan to get around it. The weather here has been awful!
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 09:52 AM
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Just a comment

I knew Haakon's full brother and many pups from him. Am very concerned with the linebreeding on Asko. And then - I just looked at the bottom of the pedigree as that is a huge factor in the outcome!

I would expect a wide spread on the temperament in the litter....and much not evident until close to maturity.....,Hardness, not particularly biddable, drive leaking like crazy. Not a litter I would recommend a beginner take a chance on for a family dog with possibility of sport....kennel dog for sport more the expectation.

Too many people just judge a pedigree on the ACCOMPLISHMENTS of dogs who are trained and competed by top notch trainers in Europe (or here)....tells you NOTHING about the dog, its family, the temperament and the likelihood of how that dog's descendants will fit into your home and lifestyle.

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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 12:37 PM
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Although I don't have time to look closely, I would be careful with the linebreeding on Asko. I agree with Lee.

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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 02:06 PM
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I would agree with Lee and repeat my encouragement that the owner get involved with a skilled trainer. My female is not a good selection for a novice but has been excellent with the family. Personally I would not breed her to a sharp dog or pedigree with such as Asko brings a lot of that already. I do train however and she has her IPO 2. I am less personally familiar with Bemoan Bee but think that many of the pups will require experience and comittment.
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 07:58 PM
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I have a 10 week old puppy who is 4-4 on Asko. I do not have the knowledge to really talk about it the way others are..but I can tell you when I was making a decision I reached out privately to a lot of people that have owned or own direct progeny and some line breedings. (along with other dog's in the new pup's pedigree - I researched them all lol) Asko- he has a page on FB.."remembering Asko" or something like that for people who have his progeny. If you reach out privately to people you will usually get candid feedback. Most people who research and are into it seem to care more about giving a potential handler accurate information over ego..in private message.

Feedback ran all the way from "awesome dog" to "sold him" lol One man's awesome dog is another man's train wreck I suppose.

The feedback I got that was consistent whether it was a welcomed trait or unwelcomed trait (because different handlers want different dogs)- of the progeny ...not so nice of a dog socially. Some said it improved greatly with maturity and training, others reported a lifetime of social aggression. Some reported suspicion but liked it, some reported suspicion that was a pain to deal with due to low nerve threshold. Can work on the field but is a piece of work in other environments, stuff like that. Anything of that nature came from direct progeny 1st 2nd gen. And it was by far not all about that. PLENTY, had what they felt were fantastic well rounded confident dogs that they enjoyed working and having in the home.

Any feedback I got from people who had linebred dogs starting at 4-4 and farther back ..it was all over the place, no real consistency like with direct progeny, which didn't surprise me since over 4 generations so many other dams and dogs in there.

I stress, I am not qualified to give my own assessment on a pedigree..I am only sharing what I was told during my super extended and quite time consuming outreach.

How is my 4-4 Asko puppy? He is hard. I won't lie. He is only 10 weeks old so this is all evolving of course. He is a tough guy for sure. Very confident but not reckless. If something makes him unsure he sits, stares, then approaches it. Since he is not fully parvo vaxed yet I have observed this only in my yard, at a few friend's homes and yards, my front lawn with a dump truck going by while he was on a mini track I layed..and at the vets with other dogs struggling to get to each other. I am limiting free time access for training and bonding purposes with my grown dog..but when I do let them interact they like each other just fine. Again though..he is a new pup.

Landshark extreme, we are redirecting fools here. Food drive through the roof. I went out to take out the garbage this a.m and closed the gate behind me. He was crying and scratching because I though he wanted to be with me (awww). Nah. I opened the gate and he made a beeline to yesterday's mini track to see if there was magically food there lol Already kind of free heeling and sitting when i stop using luring and kibble. Will put his feet on a bowl..for food. Will work for food. Has great drive with biting rag/flirtpole. Have not done tugs or pillows yet. Another few weeks for that I think. He barks and makes eye contact to engage more tug with the rag. Very handler focused and lots of eye contact.

So all that is going great, but like I said he is hard. Had he gone to a pet home there would be people saying oh my God what did we bring home. It hurts when he bites you and he is relentless lol We are walking around with tug rags and little gappay balls, constantly. We are all wearing jeans and shoes while home which we normally do not do lol He does redirect if you have something..but, you better have something. He HATES being put in his crate. He screams for a minute or 5 then settles for a few hours. So that isn't so bad. We are dilligent about crate down time and how he spends his time outside of the crate. It isn't optional lol

I knew I signed up for this, I knew I wanted him, I knew what could be for the first 12 to 15 months. But I am willing to put the work in and have exactly what I expected both the awesome and the difficult. I know it will get a lot more difficult. He is SO FAR exactly what I wanted though and I am willing to ride it out and put in the work to make him the great dog his pedigree says he can be.

Flat out- most pet people would be really caught off guard and shocked with him lol There was also variety in his litter, someone mentioned you could expect that from your litter. The breeder placed his dogs..people communicated a lot with him and he told people about what dog will do what, can do what in his opinion etc. Mine was not the calm one lol

Edited to add- I see nearly every day a dog from this prior breeding. He is over 10 months old and a great dog. Excellent drives, mmm ok offswitch, nice social attitude. Can not get his attention off his handler when they are engaged but when he is "free" he is a friendly guy. 10 months and so far nobody has had to use the Quik Clot. Rest of that litter are very happy with their 10 month old dogs too. This was a HUGE factor in my going with this breeding despite a few hard dogs in there.

Anyway all that doesn't relate to you too much because the only thing in common would be the Asko linebreeding. Just wanted to share with you how it is going for me.

My other dog is a Czech/WGWL mix as well. But, I got him at 5.5 months and his temperament was a lot more unfolded than an 8 week old. He already displayed a good offswitch. His sire is/was a prolific Slovakian police dog. There are a few PPDs in his pedigree. He has defensive drive and suspicion. Not in a spooky way (for him at least, he seems to spook the people he is merely staring at lol). I needed training help with him but I am happy to say at 22 months old he is my right hand man, my rock. He is my children's protectors and can take a crying middle schooler on his big shoulder with the best of them. I have to watch him in public because if a stranger tries to greet him like they own him, he will back them off. However if they are appropriate so is he. As he gets older he is not as stranger aloof and suspicious as he use to be. He enjoys meeting people that are appropriate now. So I would say he is maturing nicely His pedigree is in my siggy. So is the pup's.

Good luck, do your homework. Are you committed to this breeding? If others here have concerns about the dam's contribution to a male that is 4-4 on a obviously slightly controversial dog I'd be asking more in private (more likely to get direct answers that way other than vague stuff) . Research it on social media too. Like i said I found people to be candid on Messenger.
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Last edited by CometDog; 05-01-2019 at 08:07 PM.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 06:09 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the extensive write up, Comet! I have read it over a few times to make sure things really sink in. I'm going to see the breeder sometime next week so I will make sure I reiterate my needs and see how she responds.
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