Inbreeding Question - German Shepherd Dog Forums
 232Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-20-2019, 02:04 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Tulip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 469
Inbreeding Question

Please no bashing or ranting. I am just asking for opinions, facts, and sources. I did not breed this litter myself. I do not own either of these dogs.

If you had the opportunity to get a free puppy with otherwise good bloodlines and health tests, would you accept a puppy from a litter where the dam's father is the sire's half-brother? Why or why not? What are the possible risks or things to be aware of? Links to sources, studies, etc. are greatly appreciated!

I can tell you that the father is OFA Fair on hips and Passing on elbows, and that both of his parents are OFA Excellent on hips and Passing on elbows. Only health problems that the site has ever had were UTIs. I do not know if the dam has been tested. I will try to get more info on her and her parents though.

Sire:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...eppenwolf-bach

Dam's Mother:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...nike-zelgastar

Dam's Father:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...sschlucht-bach


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Tulip; 01-20-2019 at 02:17 PM.
Tulip is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-20-2019, 02:13 PM
Crowned Member
 
Jax08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NNE PA
Posts: 29,760
depends. what's the rest of the pedigree and why are they line breeding so closely?




Jax08 is offline  
post #3 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-20-2019, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Tulip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
depends. what's the rest of the pedigree and why are they line breeding so closely?
It was accidental breeding. I am in the process of posting all of the pedigrees I have. I have everyone's I believe except for the Dam's.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Tulip is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-20-2019, 02:29 PM
Crowned Member
 
Jax08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NNE PA
Posts: 29,760
here is your mating outcome. (regardless of whether this is the right female, it's the same breeding)

The sire's father is the dam's grandfather.

Litter from Kodiak Vom Steppenwolf Bach and Cora Pearl Vom Steppenwolf Bach

Now...would I get a puppy from a breeding similar to this? Yes. IF there was a reason behind the breeding. I know of a litter with this exact same circumstance that was bred to bring certain traits from a specific line back in.
Tulip likes this.




Jax08 is offline  
post #5 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-20-2019, 02:33 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Tulip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
here is your mating outcome. (regardless of whether this is the right female, it's the same breeding)

The sire's father is the dam's grandfather.

Litter from Kodiak Vom Steppenwolf Bach and Cora Pearl Vom Steppenwolf Bach

Now...would I get a puppy from a breeding similar to this? Yes. IF there was a reason behind the breeding. I know of a litter with this exact same circumstance that was bred to bring certain traits from a specific line back in.
Thank you for the response! The dam's name is Kilo, but I dont know her full AKC name and it didnt look like her parents had made a profile for her on pedigree database unfortunately.

Also, I found out that Kilo has not been health tested at all, but her father, Yago, is DM clear and OFA passing on hips and elbows. Kodiak has not been tested for DM, but both of his parents are DM clear.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Tulip; 01-20-2019 at 02:37 PM.
Tulip is offline  
post #6 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-20-2019, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Tulip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 469
I do not own either dog.

I fell on really hard times a while back and had to find Kody a new home because he was very sick and I couldn't afford to take him to the vet. The people who own Kilo took him in. Now I am in a much better place with a large emergency fund saved up, and since Kody accidentally impregnated Kilo, they are offering me a free puppy.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Tulip is offline  
post #7 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-20-2019, 04:47 PM
Aly
Master Member
 
Aly's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulip View Post
If you had the opportunity to get a free puppy with otherwise good bloodlines and health tests, would you accept a puppy from a litter where the dam's father is the sire's half-brother? Why or why not? What are the possible risks or things to be aware of? Links to sources, studies, etc. are greatly appreciated!
Disclaimer: I'm not a breeder, I've never bred a litter, nor do I personally compete my dogs in conformation or sport. That said, as much of a sucker as I am for a cute puppy, I, personally would pass. It's good that you have certain test results, but without additional background information there are too many unknowns in the scenario described for my comfort level. I understand the appeal of a free puppy but, over the years, I've found that the purchase price is often the least costly expenditure that you could encounter if your luck turns south.

Many of those unknowns might be discoverable with due diligence on your part by simply talking to the breeder (e.g., temperament characteristics in previous generations, trainability in previous generations, health issues in previous generations, etc). Other unknowns may not be so easily discovered. Too often it depends on the breeder's openness/honesty about what's behind her/his lines and how well s/he's kept track of previous litters. Some breeders are superb about this, others not so much.

IMO, the real risk in the scenario you've described is the degree of inbreeding that this puppy represents. Yes, inbreeding can 'fix' the characteristics that the breeder is trying to enhance/strengthen. But it also can 'fix' characteristics that the breeder may be unaware of or would have preferred to avoid. Further, those undesirable characteristics may be highly heritable although virtually undocumented as such because genetic testing isn't available or, if available, is prohibitively expensive. IMO, the real risk of inbreeding is that you don't know what you don't know; the results can easily become an exemplar of the Law of Unintended Consequences. Mind you, breeders run the same risks even with outcrosses. With line and inbreeding, however, those risks increase substantially because the available gene pool, so to say, has shrunk significantly over successive generations.

I've pulled a couple of (not too jargony) articles that might help in your decision-making. Or not...

https://breedingbusiness.com/consequ...og-inbreeding/

https://embarkvet.com/oedipus-rex-in...uantification/

https://www.hsvma.org/assets/pdfs/gu...-disorders.pdf
Tulip likes this.
Aly is offline  
post #8 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-20-2019, 04:48 PM
Crowned Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,179
I'd maybe give the much better place some time to make sure its not temporary. If you did decide to accept a puppy, I'd look at it more like a rescue and not really care about lines, pedigree, etc...
sit,stay, Jax08 and Tulip like this.

Doc

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steve Strom is offline  
post #9 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-20-2019, 04:53 PM
Crowned Member
 
Jax08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NNE PA
Posts: 29,760
The sire used to be your dog? then you are fully aware of temperament and health issues and you have a good knowledge of these lines??

I agree with Steve 100%
Tulip likes this.




Jax08 is offline  
post #10 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-20-2019, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Tulip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 469
I'm not really planning on breeding this new puppy unless she just unexpectedly turns out to be exceptional in terms of temperament, working ability, and heath, and while I would like to compete her in Schutzhund, I'm not going to get my hopes up with her being some world champion or anything. The only thing I'm really worried about is getting a puppy that turns out wonky with devastating health issues. As long as they turn out good looking and with reasonably decent health, I'm happy with a free puppy.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Tulip is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Inbreeding Question knwilk44 Choosing A Breeder 2 05-31-2012 04:37 PM
switching again sort of have nutrition/protein/calorie question about seveal foods selzer Diet & Nutrition 10 05-15-2012 10:03 PM
AKC Registery question. How do they *prove* it? JenniferF Genetic Issues 14 02-24-2012 01:43 PM
Question on inbreeding mrudderman24 Bloodlines & Pedigrees 29 10-13-2011 05:04 PM
Pedigree question - inbreeding? HankGSD Bloodlines & Pedigrees 11 07-26-2011 06:03 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome