Inbreeding Question - Page 5 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #41 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 11:07 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by WIBackpacker View Post
Sire (Kodiak) Fair Hips / Normal Elbows.

Dam: Unknown Hips / Unknown Elbows

There’s nothing wrong with breeding a dog with Fair hips, Fair is a passing rating. But that dog should be brought to a female with MINUMIM known passing (fair) hips. Many would say the dog should only be brought to a female with Good or better hips. Fair x Mild or Fair x Moderate or Fair x Severe doesn’t stack the deck well for sound offspring. And this cross could be any of the above.

A brief scan of Facebook leads to puppy sale ads out of closely related Steppenwolf Bach dogs, with people posting asking about hip ratings, which were not provided. So other potential buyers have noticed. Some females bred with prelims, others with no info.

In OFA’s database, there are a number of related dogs with either Hip or Elbow ratings missing, but the other rating posted. In a number of cases, this seems to be done when either Hips OR Elbows didn’t pass, and the owner only allowed the favorable rating to be published, and chose to keep the unfavorable rating private. Random missing info is a red flag. If someone is going to go through the expense of getting films done and submitting, there’s no reason not to publish a passing rating for both Hips AND Elbows.

To your original question, based on the public info available, I would not consider this a “health tested” litter.

If you’ve a mind to consider your dog as a future breeding candidate, discerning GSD puppy buyers will likely end up circling right back around to the missing or unknown orthopedic concerns in the pedigree listed above. There are multiple public references to Kodiak being a stud dog, which is probably where some of the eyebrow raising in this thread is coming from - but since I can’t read minds and I don’t have a time machine, my comments here are about health concerns.
Yes, you are right, I should have said partially heath tested. Kody's parents both have OFA Excellent and Passing hips and elbows, and I know Kilo's dad has passing hips and elbows but idk the rating on his hips. It looks like her mom's ratings are on her pedigree but I dont know how to read those since they aren't OFA?

And yes, I did used to advertise Kody as a stud dog, however no one ever contacted me about it and he had never been bred before.

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post #42 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 12:16 PM
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2-3 linebreeding is very close and, while not allowed by the SV anymore, there are knowledgeable breeders doing those breedings or have in the past. The linebreeding in and of itself would not be the reason to not take a pup from the litter. I worry more about the reoccurring UTI in the male as indicating an underlying genetic issue predisposing him and maybe his kids to the same issue.



If you look at this pup as a rescue to have fun with and you like the temperament of the pup, the sire and dam then it might be worth taking the risk. IF you are looking for a future breeding bitch, then I would pass mostly on the unknown hip/elbow ratings on mom, her sire and his mother and the possible health issues coming from dad. The linebreeding is the least of your worries though the health issues in dad could be coming from his sire (the dog that is linebred on).

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post #43 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 12:22 PM
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Given the new information that's emerged in your subsequent posts, @Tulip, my advice is now this: Do NOT take this (or any other) puppy. DO seek out an experienced, reputable breeder and see if you can arrange a mentoring relationship. DO seek out IPO or other dog training/competing clubs and soak up all you can learn. (That might be a good way to find a mentor, as well). DO continue to save your money, so that when you've expanded your knowledge base and management skills, you'll be better positioned to raise a pup.

Frankly, your posts have raised more disturbing questions than they've answered (e.g., How did you happen to place your stud in a home containing such a closely related, unneutered female?). So, take the time to better position yourself (financially, educationally, etc) for what you may want to do down the road. It won't be wasted.
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post #44 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 01:20 PM
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Oh, wow, I didnt realize I was being accused here until now. This is why I stopped going on dog forums as much as possible. You can never just ask simple questions without being attacked. I dont know if they "wanted" an "oops" litter. Who knows. I dont know why they would lie about that to me though. Maybe they just dont know how to watch intact dogs, like most pet owners. Obviously not people who visit these forums, but the average pet owner is nowhere near as responsible and watchful of their dogs than trainers or really experienced dog owners who just love training, showing, breeding, or even just learning.

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I am not attacking you or accusing you of anything. The fact that you may feel attacked could speak to a guilty conscience.
I suspect that if you do some soul searching you will realize that you represented your dog a stud when in fact you had failed to do your part with regards to health testing and proving his worth as breeding stock. You then passed him on to someone with an intact female. You represent yourself as a trainer and breeder so perhaps the folks that you gave him to, being just pet owners and all, bowed to your expert opinion and decided it would not be terrible if he bred their bitch.

Regardless, since your goals are competition and breeding this is not the puppy for you. Linebreeding is pretty common in the horse world so I am familiar with the concept, however this is not a planned breeding and no thought was put into it. Partial health testing does not cut it. It's like sort of wearing a seat belt. It's one of those do it or don't things.
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post #45 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 01:33 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry, let me get this straight: You're questioning the inbreeding of the pups and the problems that may come from it...and so you're ok about breeding the pup if it turns out "exceptional"??!! NO! Please don't put these genes back into the pool. Take a puppy if you want, but be a responsible GSD owner and please have it fixed when it's fully matured.

A little story. My previous GSD was from a backyard breeder. I didn't know any better back then. He turned out to be exceptional in personality, temperament, etc...everything, except in health. He had EPI and numerous other little health problems. I wanted so much to breed him, but I knew I couldn't pass on his genes to the next generations. I recently estimated how much I spent on that dog in the 12 years that I owned him.....somewhere between $25K to $30K!!! Maybe even more. You mentioned that you saved up enough for an emergency fund. Will you have enough if it turns out your dog has a permanent health problem like mine did? Something you need to consider especially from an inbred pup. Your pup may not have health problems but it will pass down these genes and we all know...bad health can skip a generation.

You obviously knew there were going to be a difference of opinions and so your very first sentence was a disclaimer. So don't jump down our throats when we give "advice" that you don't like to hear. You asked. Despite what you might be thinking about forums, we aren't all here to bash you. Most of these are good solid advice. We all know that at the end of the day, you're going to do what you want. Take all these opinions and advice and seriously reconsider your intentions. At the least, please reconsider fixing the pup if you do get it.
I already said earlier that if she shouldnt ne bred then that's fine, but I won't be spaying her. I know how to watch an intact dog.

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post #46 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 01:40 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Aly View Post
Given the new information that's emerged in your subsequent posts, @Tulip, my advice is now this: Do NOT take this (or any other) puppy. DO seek out an experienced, reputable breeder and see if you can arrange a mentoring relationship. DO seek out IPO or other dog training/competing clubs and soak up all you can learn. (That might be a good way to find a mentor, as well). DO continue to save your money, so that when you've expanded your knowledge base and management skills, you'll be better positioned to raise a pup.

Frankly, your posts have raised more disturbing questions than they've answered (e.g., How did you happen to place your stud in a home containing such a closely related, unneutered female?). So, take the time to better position yourself (financially, educationally, etc) for what you may want to do down the road. It won't be wasted.
Well in the breeder contract when I got him it started that I had to contact the breeder first before rehoming him. She had found someone else who had gotten a puppy from her a couple years ago who wanted to take Kody. Simple as that. I dont know how that "raises disturbing questions".

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post #47 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 01:45 PM Thread Starter
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I am not attacking you or accusing you of anything. The fact that you may feel attacked could speak to a guilty conscience.
I suspect that if you do some soul searching you will realize that you represented your dog a stud when in fact you had failed to do your part with regards to health testing and proving his worth as breeding stock. You then passed him on to someone with an intact female. You represent yourself as a trainer and breeder so perhaps the folks that you gave him to, being just pet owners and all, bowed to your expert opinion and decided it would not be terrible if he bred their bitch.

Regardless, since your goals are competition and breeding this is not the puppy for you. Linebreeding is pretty common in the horse world so I am familiar with the concept, however this is not a planned breeding and no thought was put into it. Partial health testing does not cut it. It's like sort of wearing a seat belt. It's one of those do it or don't things.
"Bowed to my expert opinion"? I have never condoned inbreeding and never suggested they should breed Kody, let alone with their own dog. They have no idea as far as i know that I train or breed. All they know is that i had a dog from the same breeder that i couldn't afford to take care of anymore. I was very upfront about his health issues. A while after they took him in, they asked me if I could send them his AKC paperwork since he accidentally mated with their dog, so I went ahead and sent it to them. That's all I know.

Let me go ahead and rephrase my question. If your goal is to compete (for fun, not crazy competitively) and have a pet only, would you get a pup from this litter for free?


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Last edited by Tulip; 01-21-2019 at 01:48 PM.
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post #48 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 01:50 PM
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Thank you, you are right.

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Earlier this morning I couldn’t see the pedigree because the links wouldn’t open, I have since looked at the pedigree. I know these lines and have owned dogs from the lines of both parents. Send me a pm and I will tell you what I think about the genetics. As for the uti condition, I have known many dogs that had reoccurring uti, I do not know of this being a genetically predisposed condition that is passed to pups.....but my exposure to this is very limited compared to many folks on the forum. I also know the hip history of these lines, excluding the parent that we don’t have info on.
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post #49 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 01:53 PM Thread Starter
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Earlier this morning I couldn’t see the pedigree because the links wouldn’t open, I have since looked at the pedigree. I know these lines and have owned dogs from the lines of both parents. Send me a pm and I will tell you what I think about the genetics. As for the uti condition, I have known many dogs that had reoccurring uti, I do not know of this being a genetically predisposed condition that is passed to pups.....but my exposure to this is very limited compared to many folks on the forum. I also know the hip history of these lines, excluding the parent that we don’t have info on.
Thank you so much!

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post #50 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 02:27 PM
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Let me go ahead and rephrase my question. If your goal is to compete (for fun, not crazy competitively) and have a pet only, would you get a pup from this litter for free?
A quick disclaimer before I try to answer this very direct question: I'm still a newb, having done tons of research over the last several months, and finally just put down a deposit on a puppy from a well-bred litter. My answer is nothing more than my thought process and opinion that may or may not give you something to think about.

Regarding nothing more than your stated goal for the pup....I don't see any reason why you shouldn't take one. A nice pet, a warm companion, a dog that enjoys a fun, active life playing with IPO or agility or something, without expecting championship results....those can come from anywhere, including this litter.

HOWEVER...there does seem to be a fairly high risk for some health issues along the way. There's a good chance you might end up right where you were when you had to rehome the sire. So long as you take THAT risk into serious consideration and feel you are able to fully embrace it if it happens again.....then, in my opinion....go for it.

Personally, I would not. I'm very gunshy about taking in a pup with chronic health issues. I accept the very small risk of that, knowing that there's never 100% certainty in any living creature...but I mitigate that risk as much as I can by choosing a puppy from a known, strong and healthy breeding.

Best of luck to you, whichever way you decide to go!
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