Inbreeding Question - Page 4 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #31 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 09:08 AM
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If you had the opportunity to get a free puppy with otherwise good bloodlines and health tests, would you accept a puppy from a litter where the dam's father is the sire's half-brother? Why or why not? What are the possible risks or things to be aware of? Links to sources, studies, etc. are greatly appreciated!

I can tell you that the father is OFA Fair on hips and Passing on elbows, and that both of his parents are OFA Excellent on hips and Passing on elbows. Only health problems that the site has ever had were UTIs. I do not know if the dam has been tested. I will try to get more info on her and her parents though.
Sire (Kodiak) Fair Hips / Normal Elbows.

Dam: Unknown Hips / Unknown Elbows

There’s nothing wrong with breeding a dog with Fair hips, Fair is a passing rating. But that dog should be brought to a female with MINUMIM known passing (fair) hips. Many would say the dog should only be brought to a female with Good or better hips. Fair x Mild or Fair x Moderate or Fair x Severe doesn’t stack the deck well for sound offspring. And this cross could be any of the above.

A brief scan of Facebook leads to puppy sale ads out of closely related Steppenwolf Bach dogs, with people posting asking about hip ratings, which were not provided. So other potential buyers have noticed. Some females bred with prelims, others with no info.

In OFA’s database, there are a number of related dogs with either Hip or Elbow ratings missing, but the other rating posted. In a number of cases, this seems to be done when either Hips OR Elbows didn’t pass, and the owner only allowed the favorable rating to be published, and chose to keep the unfavorable rating private. Random missing info is a red flag. If someone is going to go through the expense of getting films done and submitting, there’s no reason not to publish a passing rating for both Hips AND Elbows.

To your original question, based on the public info available, I would not consider this a “health tested” litter.

If you’ve a mind to consider your dog as a future breeding candidate, discerning GSD puppy buyers will likely end up circling right back around to the missing or unknown orthopedic concerns in the pedigree listed above. There are multiple public references to Kodiak being a stud dog, which is probably where some of the eyebrow raising in this thread is coming from - but since I can’t read minds and I don’t have a time machine, my comments here are about health concerns.
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post #32 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Tulip View Post
Please no bashing or ranting. I am just asking for opinions, facts, and sources. I did not breed this litter myself. I do not own either of these dogs.

If you had the opportunity to get a free puppy with otherwise good bloodlines and health tests, would you accept a puppy from a litter where the dam's father is the sire's half-brother? Why or why not? What are the possible risks or things to be aware of? Links to sources, studies, etc. are greatly appreciated!

I can tell you that the father is OFA Fair on hips and Passing on elbows, and that both of his parents are OFA Excellent on hips and Passing on elbows. Only health problems that the site has ever had were UTIs. I do not know if the dam has been tested. I will try to get more info on her and her parents though.

Sire:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...eppenwolf-bach

Dam's Mother:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...nike-zelgastar

Dam's Father:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...sschlucht-bach
I own two dogs that are pretty heavily linebred...inbred...however you want to say it. I can say more about one than the other because I know more about that breeder. That breeding was carefully planned. The dogs had been used a lot in the breeding program and the breeder has been doing this awhile. I would call her experienced. I think it's safe to say she probably had a pretty good idea of what to expect those dogs to produce. There was extensive health testing. The two individual parents had a progeny list on the OFA database and had produced nothing less than a Good and several Excellents between them.

I'm happy with the dog. He is not breedworthy due to a genetic thing though. Whether that has to do with the linebreeding, I have no idea. Not something that threatens his well being.

I should have said first I'm not qualified to have an opinion about pedigrees like this because I really just don't have the knowledge. I did not research it before I bought this dog. I do have confidence in his breeder's knowledge though.

All that said, I would NOT want a puppy from what you described above. What you described as far as I can tell is absolutely not something done thoughtfully, carefully, with all possible testing and screening and deep knowledge of the dogs and the lines.

This topic came up a lot when I was breeding goats- and I think I do understand why people do that sort of breeding, to set a type, for uniformity in what they produce, etc. But I think it was a goat breeder I recall saying "you really want to know what nasties are going to or possibly going to pop up". And you really don't know. what you DO know, is that the one dog you know something about, is not as good as he can be. He has only Fair hips and a chronic health issue.

The financial burden of the sire's problem was too much for you. Who knows what kind of a worse burden you might wind up with from one of these puppies. Free sounds good until you find out what other problems it has. I'd definitely pass.

If you want to do something, do it right. If you want to breed dogs, start with a well bred dog. I wouldn't begrudge anyone who wants to learn to breed dogs. Sure you could wind up with a good dog from this. But I don't think the odds are stacked in your favor, and when you get right down to it, it's all a gamble. I would want the best odds possible for success.

Unless of course you are legitimately fine with whatever issues the puppy may have- you are sure you are going to be financially able to deal with whatever issues come up, and you are sure you are fine with not being able to breed the dog if it doesn't stack up. And please be really honest with yourself about those things. Things happen, people have to give dogs up, whatever. But don't make the same mistake twice.
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post #33 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 10:15 AM
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I would not get a puppy from this breeding. As I stated in one of my first posts -IF there was a reason for the breeding, I would. There was no reason other than carelessness and to many unknowns on health and temperament.
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post #34 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 10:19 AM
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If I was serious about competing in a sport and breeding, as a novice I would start off with a female puppy from an experienced breeder who could guide me along the way and who could help me understand pedigrees. If I only wanted a companion, I would only consider this litter (or any BYB) if I could afford a pet insurance policy. Without pet insurance, I would pass, as it seems like there could be a greater chance of health issues, especially with a non-professional breeder.
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post #35 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 10:34 AM
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I'm not really planning on breeding this new puppy unless she just unexpectedly turns out to be exceptional in terms of temperament, working ability, and heath, and while I would like to compete her in Schutzhund, I'm not going to get my hopes up with her being some world champion or anything. The only thing I'm really worried about is getting a puppy that turns out wonky with devastating health issues. As long as they turn out good looking and with reasonably decent health, I'm happy with a free puppy.

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Sorry, let me get this straight: You're questioning the inbreeding of the pups and the problems that may come from it...and so you're ok about breeding the pup if it turns out "exceptional"??!! NO! Please don't put these genes back into the pool. Take a puppy if you want, but be a responsible GSD owner and please have it fixed when it's fully matured.

A little story. My previous GSD was from a backyard breeder. I didn't know any better back then. He turned out to be exceptional in personality, temperament, etc...everything, except in health. He had EPI and numerous other little health problems. I wanted so much to breed him, but I knew I couldn't pass on his genes to the next generations. I recently estimated how much I spent on that dog in the 12 years that I owned him.....somewhere between $25K to $30K!!! Maybe even more. You mentioned that you saved up enough for an emergency fund. Will you have enough if it turns out your dog has a permanent health problem like mine did? Something you need to consider especially from an inbred pup. Your pup may not have health problems but it will pass down these genes and we all know...bad health can skip a generation.

You obviously knew there were going to be a difference of opinions and so your very first sentence was a disclaimer. So don't jump down our throats when we give "advice" that you don't like to hear. You asked. Despite what you might be thinking about forums, we aren't all here to bash you. Most of these are good solid advice. We all know that at the end of the day, you're going to do what you want. Take all these opinions and advice and seriously reconsider your intentions. At the least, please reconsider fixing the pup if you do get it.
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post #36 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 10:35 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by selzer View Post
Baloney.


People who have intact dogs know that puppies can happen. Even pet owners. What you are doing is throwing all the pet owners here that keep their dogs intact in order for them to grow properly, be healthier, or for protection/other work under the bus. You are saying that pet owners cannot be trusted to keep their animals intact without breeding them. If that were the fact than one should have a kennel license/breeding permit to own intact dogs. Totally unnecessary. People can be responsible. Oops is more irresponsible than intentionally breeding ANY litter. If your buddy wanted puppies out of dog with an incontinence problem than he/she should say so and take her lumps, not throw dog owners under the bus.
I never threw all pet dog owners under the bus? I said the average pet owner. I work with pet owners all day every day and the AVERAGE one doesnt know how to watch intact dogs. I mentioned that of course there are many pet dog owners, especially those who visit forums like these, who ARE responsible enough to avoid oops litters. I never said ALL pet owners are irresponsible.

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post #37 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 10:36 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fodder View Post
Some could argue that at least part of the responsibility falls on the rehoming party who placed an intact dog in a home with another intact dog of the opposite sex.

Not to mention, your website, offering stud services, may also be raising flags for some members.

Just some things to consider before getting offended.
Ugh, sorry I havent taken that down yet. No one seems to visit it anyway.

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post #38 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 10:37 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cliffson1 View Post
Why would you bring this question to a public forum? You have to expect a diversity of opinions from informed and uninformed and from folks that think their way is only right way. ��*♀️
There is no right answer to your question, only personal opinions. Your initial question seems to be about the inbreeding aspect of pups in question. I have not seen many insightful answers to this........
Thank you, you are right.

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post #39 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 10:38 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
Well I'm not accusing you of anything. You asked if a person would take a puppy from a litter that closely bred and I responded. But only someone who knows the pedigree can tell you what you MAY get from that litter with the close line breeding. I don't know pedigrees and I'm not going to pretend to. Very few people on this board know pedigrees.

You added information on your finances that opened this conversation up. Steve told you to really make sure your finances were secure and to think of the puppy as a rescue if you went forward with it. I agreed with this. Most solid piece of advice on the thread.

Then you added information on the time line of rehoming your dog. So my question is not an accusation. It's just a question on why you wouldn't take your dog back given the small amount of time that has passed.

As far as the idea of you breeding goes.....if you title that dog and he turns out to be breed worthy then you have just as much right to breed as any of us with pedigree dogs who have been worked and proven to be breed worthy without being harassed over it.
Thank you for your response!

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post #40 of 138 (permalink) Old 01-21-2019, 10:39 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Thecowboysgirl View Post
I 100% agree, the average pet owner is nowhere near as responsible and watchful of their dogs as trainers or really experienced dog people. Actually, this is why I get annoyed when this forum is like "don't spay or neuter, it isn't healthy!!" when the person posting CLEARLY is not doing what need to be done to prevent accidental breeding.

In my experience, average pet people often aren't even willing/able to do enough supervision and management to prevent counter surfing, never mind breeding. That's fine. I don't care. But spay/neuter your dog if you don't want to be responsible for it.

These people who took your dog should have immediately neutered him, in my opinion. I know people whose under exercised dogs break out of crates and they just shrug and say okay I'll let them trash my house while I am gone because I can't contain them. I can't imagine being okay with that.
I agree completely!

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