Horand von Grafrath pedigree - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-11-2018, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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Horand von Grafrath pedigree

Okay, I consider myself an above-average researcher. But I've never been able to find answers to a couple basic questions:

1. Who were Horand's parents (i.e. what breed) and
2. Who were the dams that produced Heinz von Starkenburg, Beowolf and Pilot?

Really, what I'm curious to know is what specific breeds went into creating the GSD. The closest I've been able to get to an answer is on this link, which looks like a family tree: Horand von Grafrath (Hektor Linksrhein) But I'm a hobbyist, not expert, and don't understand all the pedigree lingo.
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-11-2018, 10:57 PM
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_German_herding_dogs

Essentially this is where they came from. Dogs that herded well. They were bred and inbred to create a type.
Majority of the dogs that compete in HGH in Germany are old herding dogs, with no set type

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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018, 08:31 AM
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To be a little more specific - the GSD was developed from 3 different regional types of dogs. Horand, I believe, represented the Thuringian regional type. The other types that were included in early development of the breed were the Wurttemberg and Swabian dogs. None were what we would call 'breeds', but regional types that were bred for purposes suiting their environment and the work they were required to do.

Max von Stephanitz and others combined these three types, through line breeding and inbreeding, to establish the breed we know today.
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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018, 08:56 AM
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Horand's parents were Kastor (1893) X Lene Sparwasser (1894.) Beowolf and Pilot were out of Horand X Thekla I von der Krone. Heinz was out of Horand X Lucie von Starkenburg. The SV was not started until 1899, so Horand's parents were not of a specific breed, but more from types of herding breeds, such as the Thuringian shepherd dog (North Germany) who was more of a "fancy" dog due to erect ears and wolf-grey color and Wurtemberg dogs, (South Germany) large boned and fast, lanky and not as driven. Horand was the first registered GSD. Von Stephanitz used very close inbreeding to set a structural type early in the breed.
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018, 09:53 AM
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Some interesting articles on the types of dogs used to create the breed that were Swabian and Thuringia mentioned. I also remember reading Horands grandfather was white.
https://sites.google.com/site/doghou...bian-shepherds

https://sites.google.com/site/doghou...gian-yard-dogs

http://germanshepherdcountry.com/the...-shepherd-dog/


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Last edited by Jenny720; 12-12-2018 at 09:56 AM.
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-13-2018, 01:09 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Clean-Air System View Post
To be a little more specific - the GSD was developed from 3 different regional types of dogs. Horand, I believe, represented the Thuringian regional type. The other types that were included in early development of the breed were the Wurttemberg and Swabian dogs. None were what we would call 'breeds', but regional types that were bred for purposes suiting their environment and the work they were required to do.

Max von Stephanitz and others combined these three types, through line breeding and inbreeding, to establish the breed we know today.
Thanks! I just looked up pics of those types and they all look very similar. Wonder when/how/where the black saddle made it into the equation.
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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-13-2018, 10:15 AM
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Some of the early dogs had a black saddle but it was much more dilute than a modern black and tan saddle. Hettel Uckermark (DOB-1907) was a better pigmented black and tan saddle and son of solid black Roland v. Starkenburg, and was the foundation for the first black and tan GSDs that came to America. I don't know what color Hettel's dam, Grettel was. Both Hettel and Roland has passable temperament at best. This where I think v. Stephanitz and all his talk about keeping his breed a working dog is somewhat hypocritical. Early on, he sacrificed temperament and health problems in order to set a certain type/structure. Hettel passed on some serious health problems, and Roland was praised as a genetic mutant that was very prepotent due to intense inbreeding, and lead to a very desirable structure, but at the expense of temperament as it has been reported he was a weak/nervy dog. All GDSs go back to Roland.
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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-20-2018, 08:35 AM
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The black saddle was developed through influence of the Thuringian type.
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