Inexperienced with pedigrees, needing an opinion! - Page 4 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #31 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LuvShepherds View Post
@Opsoclonus What is the reference you cited? I have information on bloat that contradicts some of what you posted. I was told by a vet that dry food should be moistened and that there is no consensus on a lot of what you posted as fact. Iím not being critical, but I have also read a lot and concluded there is disagreement in published material on ďfactsĒ and causes. Another study found no correlation tween activity and bloat.

If you like that litter and want a dog, you should make your own decision. This is just one set of inputs. I would talk to the breeder. Have they bred those dogs and lines before? Have they had any bloat in their lines? Though, I would probably pass on the litter, too, having gone through it before.
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Originally Posted by LuvShepherds View Post
I tried reading those studies and got bogged down in terminology. Is there anything in the studies that offers advice on how to prevent it? There is discussion of make up of stomach enzymes. Would probiotics or something else help prevent it?

The genetic link seems to be strongest in direct descendents, so father to son. It doesnít seem to be as strong a correlation when it is more than one generation removed.
Hey, no worries! As long as this is a constructive conversation I'm happy to indulge. I'm not even a GSD owner yet so I'm sure you've done a lot more reading on this topic than I have.
I included the sources near the bottom of the summary below Simethicone.

They most definitely may be outdated in terms of raw percentages but I do believe the precautions to be sound and have not read anything contradicting them.
The fact that the study includes relative risk and calculated percentages gives me the sense that this is a true statistical study, there must be some factual information presented based on the sample study.
Precautions are simply just that - precautions. Preventative measures are difficult to put numbers to since most samples do not follow up until there is disease.
I doubt there will ever be a controlled study with canines with GDV since they are man's best friend.
I'm interested in reading your sources to learn the latest.


These are my thoughts regarding exercise and it's relation to bloat. Keep in mind that this is not something that happens in one setting. This is most likely due to a habitual practice.

Exercise may be entirely subjective but the correlation between vigorous exercise and ↑ Respiratory Rate (RR), ↑ Cardiac Output (CO), ↑ sympathetic stimulation, ↓ parasympathetic activity with exercise is physiologic fact.
Eating induces a parasympathetic response (increased blood flow to GI) in order to begin digestion. Activity of the sympathetic nervous system (blood shunted away from GI) is dominant. Following vigorous exercise with food intake will simply allow food to remain stagnant/lack of digestion ⇒ ↑ fermentation & gas.

Regarding moist food, I cannot think of a firm logical counter your veterinarian's statement. I fed my Lab moist food as she got older when her teeth were just not up to the task any longer. The fact of the matter is that she was not as prone to GDV so I didn't need to take that precaution.
Perhaps moistened should be exchanged with the word soaked?

My thoughts of this being a preventative measure is considering 'soaked' kibble to create unnatural expansion in the stomach and perhaps a slight increase of pH in the stomach. (Chewing stimulates digestive enzymes prior to ingestion into the stomach ⇒ ↓pH; Water has a neutral pH ⇒↑pH in the stomach)

All in all each preventative measure to GDV is indicating that you should do all you can to increase the digestive process within the stomach and less to hinder the digestive process.
Maintaining a low pH in the stomach is a method to aid digestion.

I hope that makes sense.


With regards to the shepherd, I'll go back to visit and with Lee's advice I'll take her out of her environment to learn a bit more about temperament and simultaneously learn more about the breeder.

After speaking to some breeders of 40-50 years the difference in just a phone conversation is striking.
I'm looking for a friend in this dog, so i'll have to do my best to make sure she's healthy throughout her lifetime.
You know, I research GDV not because of what I will have to endure, but what the dog must endure.

As a responsible GSD owner, it's my duty to make sure the future of the breed remains healthy - so then it becomes less about the dog and more about the breeder. The decision then becomes easy.

I'm looking forward to a canine companion! But until then I'll marvel at all them here =)
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post #32 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 09:56 AM
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Iíll apologize in advance, for any typos/incoherence. Not enough coffee on board and Iíve got to jump on a call in 20 (oops 15) minutes, but wanted to respond quickly to a couple of questions/comments raised by OP and LuvShepherds.

@Opsoclonus This makes sense for why the average onset of GDV in dogs is around the age of seven yoa.


Yes, but keep in mind that this is an average age at onset; you really have to look at the variance to get an idea of what one/you might encounter with an individual/your dog ó in the context of other hypothesized contributors (e.g., heritability & consanguinity indices, environment and management practices, temperament/personality) only some of which are controllable. One of the frustrating aspects of this kind of research (well, for me, anyway) is that the more you learn, the more you realize how very much you do not know. In a slightly OT vent: Another frustration is that too many breeders are not as forthcoming as one might wish them to be about demonstrably heritable problems in their lines ó assuming that they attempt to compile that information in the first place. All the more reason to choose your breeder carefully.

@Opsoclonus This autoimmune disorder leads to dysbiosis of the GI microbiome → IBD in these dogs. Are GSD's prone to IBD?

Yes:
Genetic Research on IBD: https://www.purinaproclub.com/resour...new-treatments

Canine Breeds at High Risk for IBD: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21896567

How to Cure IBD in Dogs: https://nextgendog.com/ibd-in-dogs/ Note that the title is a bit of a misnomer (e.g., ďCureĒ), but has useful information nonetheless.
@Opsoclonus The second article assumes a high degree of consanguinity, which of in itself is problem.

Yes it is. Though, I must confess that the nerd in me has always been fascinated (in a purely intellectual sense) by linebreeding, theory and practice. That said, Iíve also been greatly concerned by the results of linebreeding that Iíve seen ó largely produced by Ďbreedersí whose understanding of genetics could only be described as, uh, romantic. Iím not speaking of GSD breeders, here, as I donít know enough to comment in this specific respect.

@Opsoclonus Since the samples in this experiment are Great Dane's I would be curious to know the the ratio of IBD in Great Dane's to GSD's.

In reading the article we should keep in mind the risk of GDV is Great Dane > Saint Bernard >
Weimaraner > Irish setter > Gordon Setter.


Iíve seen mentions of a GSD study, as @Jax08 noted, but donít have any references to hand and no time to rummage around for any until this evening. If Iím able to find something, Iíll come back and edit it in.

Regarding breed predisposition, there are two things to keep in mind. First, most of that data is limited by self-report. (See my above comments about breeder forthrightness). For example, GDV is not uncommon in wolfhounds and my own experience is illustrative. Yet, the breed frequently doesnít appear in incidence/predisposition lists. It is what it is. So, with additional data, more breeds may show up. Second, itís important to keep in mind that while certain breeds may be more predisposed to GDV, virtually any dog can develop this.

@LuvShepherds: I tried reading those studies and got bogged down in terminology. Is there anything in the studies that offers advice on how to prevent it? There is discussion of make up of stomach enzymes. Would probiotics or something else help prevent it?

Well, there is rather a LOT of opaque terminology. LOL. To my knowledge, no one really knows what causes GDV, though it seems clear (IMO) that thereís no one, easily identifiable cause ó which makes it really difficult to talk about prevention. Thatís also why there have been separate lines of investigation. There are several recommendations in the lay literature (e.g., avoid exercise before and after feeding, donít use raised bowls) but many of those arenít supported by current studies ó too many exceptions.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a vet, nor a breeder or a geneticist, yada yada; Iím also speculating in what follows. Since weíre basically talking about gastric issues here (GDV, IBS, IBD), I would and have put my dogs on viable probiotics as SOP, changing which probiotics I use as I gain more information. I look at it this way: It canít hurt, itís likely to boost the dogís immune system, which is a good thing (Iím on probiotics myself), and it may act prophylactically with GDV in certain cases. (Oh, note that when I say ďviable probioticsĒ I mean probiotics for which there is supportive, scientific data; many/most donít have that).

That said, I believe that the most effective things that dog owners can do are (1) learn the symptoms of GDV, (2) keep simethecone on hand/in the car for immediate use in an emergency, and (3) in consultation with your vet, record the proper dosage for each dog in the household and put that information in the same packet. GDV is a life threatening emergency. If you suspect that your dog is bloating, do not hesitate. Administer the simethecone immediately and head for the ER. When you get there, tell staff what you administered and when.

@LuvShepherds The genetic link seems to be strongest in direct descendents, so father to son. It doesnít seem to be as strong a correlation when it is more than one generation removed.

Yes, but personally, I wouldnít take overmuch comfort in what one might call a Ďdistance hypothesis;í that is, the further removed a pup is, generationally speaking, from a known case, the safer the pup is from GDV. We just donít know enough yet, certainly this nongeneticist doesnít. For example, later studies may identify what are currently unknown factors and, in turn, that information could boost the coefficient considerably. Weíve known for some time GDV is heritable, but still we donít know all of the setting conditions for genetic transmission never mind expression (GDV itself). Then too, thereís always the pesky problem of epigenetics...

Hope this helps; post questions if anything I said was unclear.

Aly
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post #33 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 10:02 AM
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No, I donít have any more information than you do. Most of the articles I have seen are anecdotal. Iím now trying to read the original studies, but the technical medical terminology is slowing me down. I am trying to learn everything I can on the subject.
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post #34 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 10:05 AM
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@Aly

Seger is entered in that study. I can send you what I have. PM me your email address.




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post #35 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by LuvShepherds View Post
Very high drive, over the top in some of his progeny. Mal-like intensity. My dog is high drive but much calmer, although he is a few generations removed from Vito.
Depends on the pedigree. With the Vito progeny, excellent drive and focus. And huge heart dogs. Great combination.

We bred Freya (Vito daughter) to Enzo and knew that it would be a tough breeding. Great combo from the two.
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post #36 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 10:20 AM
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I plowed through the article and it does seem that genetics, even going back several generations, is correlated with the tendency to develop GDV. I know someone who rescues standard poodles and every one of their dogs going back ten years, has bloated. None were related to one another but I don’t know or understand that breeds lineage. Given some of us have Vito progeny, how do we prevent it? I know this is off the subject of the OP’s question about a puppy, but it affects many of us. I can’t feed a complete raw diet, as mine is allergic to chicken and after evaluating the preparations required for raw, I didn’t think I could give him a balanced enough diet without it. I looked into Honest Kitchen and their product is based on chicken too. I am currently soaking dry kibble, but that is apparently not right either. I am open to suggestions. My dog’s stomach has been tacked but tacks can rip loose if they bloat.
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post #37 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Smithie86 View Post
Depends on the pedigree. With the Vito progeny, excellent drive and focus. And huge heart dogs. Great combination.

We bred Freya (Vito daughter) to Enzo and knew that it would be a tough breeding. Great combo from the two.
My dog has high drive but is calm and balanced. Vito is his great grandfather.
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post #38 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 10:45 AM
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I started a new thread on bloat prevention so others can find it. I feel badly taking the OP’s thread so far off topic even though it’s an important subject. https://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...revention.html
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post #39 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-09-2018, 07:08 AM
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Though Bloat May have hereditary component, dietary and exercise/training practices are also major contributors to this condition. Vito is also unfairly maligned in my opinion by the popularity and number of dogs bred to him that were not good choices. No matter which stud dog you cite, when they are bred to excessively and bred to by folks throwing together two titled dogs you are going to get bad breedings resulting in increases in issues in health, temperament and longevity....pure and simple. When bred knowledgeably as demonstrated by Sue,( Smith86), I think Vito has been asset to the breed.
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post #40 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-09-2018, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Opsoclonus View Post
I wasn't able to meet with the mother (she was said to be aggressive)
OP, I have a few minutes and wanted to add several thoughts. I got distracted by the GDV discussion and forgot to bring them up. First, I think she's a very pretty girl who looks to have decent conformation (nothing leaps out at me), but I'm far from an expert. Second, if I'm recalling correctly, she's 4 months which seems a tad old. So, if she is 4 months, I'd want to know why the breeder kept her (did the pup 'wash out' of preliminary screening for IPO, for example?).

Finally, you said that you weren't able to meet the mother because she was "said to be aggressive." That's a potential red flag to me, of potentially equal concern to any possible GDV in the pup's background, for example. I'd want not only to see/meet the mother (they should be able to arrange for you to do that safely), but also to get a more detailed description of what the breeder meant by "aggressive" (e.g., aggressive with whom and under what circumstances, humans only or dogs as well, warning barks or charging with/without biting). That the puppy seemed submissive and friendly may or may not be meaningful; she's still a puppy.

In the grand scheme of things, there are no absolutes in any of this. To me, the guiding questions are how: much experience you have (with dogs, in general, and GSDs in specific) and how much additional knowledge/experience you're willing to seek out, what you plan to do with the dog and how flexible those plans are, and what kinds of behaviors/temperament are you're willing to live with? The answers are different for each person. Health is important but, for me, temperament and character pretty much trump pretty much everything else. That said, the kinds of temperament that I'm willing to live and cherish are specific/desirable only to me. Each individual is different.

More things for you to mull over, I'm afraid.

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