Inexperienced with pedigrees, needing an opinion! - Page 3 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by LuvShepherds View Post
Very high drive, over the top in some of his progeny. Mal-like intensity. My dog is high drive but much calmer, although he is a few generations removed from Vito.
Thanks! Beau couldíve used a handler with more skill than I had when he arrived, but he is more than manageable. He has high toy and prey drives, so far have seen zero protection against people, discerning defensive response to some other dogs. A bit excitable in new situations, but not Mal intensity, thank you. He can turn it off and relax at home when I want him to, settles pretty well. Doing that right now as I type .

The torsion info is a bit worrying, but I already do what I can to reduce the chances of it happening. Now Iíll just be even more vigilant.
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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 07:29 PM
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Even if a dog throws progeny who end up with torsion, the probabilty of your dog getting it is low. It only means they have more bloat than a sample that isnít predisposed to it, but it doesnít mean a lot will get it. I donít have any idea what the percentage is.
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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 08:09 PM
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Even if a dog throws progeny who end up with torsion, the probabilty of your dog getting it is low. It only means they have more bloat than a sample that isnít predisposed to it, but it doesnít mean a lot will get it. I donít have any idea what the percentage is.

Seems to depend on what the dog inherited (e.g., immune system genes) among other factors. There's been a lot of groundbreaking research on this in recent years and well worth a look. I've listed a couple of articles below.

OP, I don't know nearly enough about pedigrees, per se, to tell you anything at all useful. However, having had 3 IWs who developed GDV (2 made it, 1 didn't), I would RUN upon finding that GDV (which is heritable) is present in the generations behind a pup I was considering.

YMMV.

Aly

Canine Gut Microbiome Associated with Higher Risk of GDV:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5995382/

Genetics of GDV in Dogs: https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/...=12513&print=1
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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 09:00 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you all for your valuable thoughts, it has given me a lot to think about and I have truly learned and continue to learn a lot from this forum.

@Ihczth: I do want her to enjoy the experience of her maternal instinct atleast once and I will be mindful of the health of the future of the breed. I'm glad you brought this to my attention.

@luvshepherd: thanks for bringing the risk of GDV to my attention. The following is a summary of my investigation of risk factors and preventative measures.

Disclaimer: I am not a veterinarian and the advice below is intended for educational purposes and should not replace that of your licensed vet.


Regarding GDV/bloat there are two important aspects we must consider:
  1. A genetic component definitely exists and is related greatly to anatomical conformation & temperament.
  1. Also of importance are the environmental and modifiable risk factors.


Genetic Risk Factors:
  • 1į relative with GDV 63% increased association.
  • Chest Depth/Width Ratio (1,0 to 2,4): 170% increased risk for each increased unit of ratio
  • Temperament:"There does seem to be a direct correlation of the animalís temperament relating to its tendency to develop GDV. Those animals being characterized as unhappy or fearful were about 2Ĺ times as likely to develop GDV. Stress appears to significantly increase the chance of the animal developing GDV. Animals who undergo significant stress traveling to shows, etc. are 2-3 times as likely to develop GDV than those animals who are not significantly affected by the transport. Also activity level may be important with those animals characterized as hyperactive and those animals being categorized as less active were twice as likely to develop GDV as those animals characterized as having a normal activity level."



Environmental & Modifiable risk factors:
Dietary Habits:
  1. A raised feeding bowl has 110% increased risk.
  1. Avoid single large meals (2X as likely for GDV), instead feed two to three small meals/day with an increased variety in their food (59-28% decreased risk)
  1. "Dogs fed dry dog foods that list oils (e.g. sunflower oil, animal fat) or corn among the first four label ingredients predispose a high risk dog to GDV." Avoid moistening dry food(s) prior to feeding.
  1. Rate of eating: Slow eaters are least likely to develop GDV while fast eaters are 5X as likely to develop GDV.
  1. "Restrict vigorous exercise one hour before and two hours after meals"
  1. Body Weight: "Being overweight actually reduced the incidence of GDV compared to dogs that were optimum weight. However, those animals characterized as significantly underweight were about 3 times as likely to develop GDV as those animals characterized as optimum weight."



"Simethicone (store brand-Phazyme) should be kept in your cabinet at all times. It is an anti-gas pill that can help to buy your vet some time should you think your dog is bloating. It may even stop the bloat if in the beginning stages. If you wait too long, the dog will not be able to swallow the pill. Make sure you tell your vet you have given the pills."


Source(s):
  1. German Shepherd Rescue of New England
  1. Gary Ellison - GDV
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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 09:55 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Aly View Post
Seems to depend on what the dog inherited (e.g., immune system genes) among other factors. There's been a lot of groundbreaking research on this in recent years and well worth a look. I've listed a couple of articles below.

OP, I don't know nearly enough about pedigrees, per se, to tell you anything at all useful. However, having had 3 IWs who developed GDV (2 made it, 1 didn't), I would RUN upon finding that GDV (which is heritable) is present in the generations behind a pup I was considering.

YMMV.

Aly

Canine Gut Microbiome Associated with Higher Risk of GDV:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5995382/

Genetics of GDV in Dogs: https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/...=12513&print=1
Thanks for your input Aly, and yes, I'm increasingly hesitant to move forward.
I've been speaking with many breeders and they're all so ready to shower me with their breadth of knowledge without any expectations.
It's a very different experience from when I met with this breeder and his level of knowledge.
I wish I understood how to read a pedigree with more proficiency, but as I speak to more breeders, I learn something new everytime.
Unfortunately I put down a deposit which I may have to lose. Additionally, waiting for the next & right litter may be a longer wait than I had hoped for.


I appreciate the link to the articles, they're very informative.
I've been reading a lot about ghrelin and motilin mutations/dysfunction to be the main investigation into the cause of GDV. This makes sense as they are the hormones which control the activity of the GI. A malfunction in motility allows for fermentation and production of gas, similar to the implications the article describes.

The NCBI article speaks about the canine genetic HLA as a possible factor in the development of GDV. This is related to an autoimmune mechanism which is a lot like Type II DM in humans: there is a strong genetic predisposition but an environmental factor must also be present in order for expression of the disease.
This makes sense for why the average onset of GDV in dogs is around the age of seven yoa.

This autoimmune disorder leads to dysbiosis of the GI microbiome → IBD in these dogs. Are GSD's prone to IBD?

Since the samples in this experiment are Great Dane's I would be curious to know the the ratio of IBD in Great Dane's to GSD's.
In reading the article we should keep in mind the risk of GDV is Great Dane > Saint Bernard >
Weimaraner > Irish setter > Gordon Setter.

This is good news as there are many environmental/modifiable factors that we are aware of.
I'm excited to see such in depth investigation into this disease, it exemplifies the value of man's best friend.

The second article assumes a high degree of consanguinity, which of in itself is problem.
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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 10:13 PM
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There is currently a study being conducted with German Shepherds. They had a very large response. In the initial step, they found exactly the same as they did in Great Danes.




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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 11:52 PM
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@Opsoclonus What is the reference you cited? I have information on bloat that contradicts some of what you posted. I was told by a vet that dry food should be moistened and that there is no consensus on a lot of what you posted as fact. I’m not being critical, but I have also read a lot and concluded there is disagreement in published material on “facts” and causes. Another study found no correlation tween activity and bloat.

If you like that litter and want a dog, you should make your own decision. This is just one set of inputs. I would talk to the breeder. Have they bred those dogs and lines before? Have they had any bloat in their lines? Though, I would probably pass on the litter, too, having gone through it before.

Last edited by LuvShepherds; 08-08-2018 at 12:08 AM.
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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aly View Post
Seems to depend on what the dog inherited (e.g., immune system genes) among other factors. There's been a lot of groundbreaking research on this in recent years and well worth a look. I've listed a couple of articles below.

OP, I don't know nearly enough about pedigrees, per se, to tell you anything at all useful. However, having had 3 IWs who developed GDV (2 made it, 1 didn't), I would RUN upon finding that GDV (which is heritable) is present in the generations behind a pup I was considering.

YMMV.

Aly

Canine Gut Microbiome Associated with Higher Risk of GDV:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5995382/

Genetics of GDV in Dogs: https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/...=12513&print=1
I tried reading those studies and got bogged down in terminology. Is there anything in the studies that offers advice on how to prevent it? There is discussion of make up of stomach enzymes. Would probiotics or something else help prevent it?

The genetic link seems to be strongest in direct descendents, so father to son. It doesnít seem to be as strong a correlation when it is more than one generation removed.
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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
There is currently a study being conducted with German Shepherds. They had a very large response. In the initial step, they found exactly the same as they did in Great Danes.
Do you have a link? Is anything published yet?
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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Opsoclonus View Post
Thank you all for your valuable thoughts, it has given me a lot to think about and I have truly learned and continue to learn a lot from this forum.

@Ihczth: I do want her to enjoy the experience of her maternal instinct atleast once and I will be mindful of the health of the future of the breed. I'm glad you brought this to my attention.
Not Lisa, but I would certainly urge you to consider all the info about health issues cited here....then look at all the threads about people who are seeking help with their pet GSDs....most of the dogs people are having problems with are purchased as pets from someone who is not a dedicateddon, hard core, breed knowledgeable, responsible, reputable, experienced breeder - or they would be getting help from that person! Instead, they buy a pup from someone who thinks their dog needs to be a mother, whose family thinks they want (but usually don't really) a puppy, who thinks puppies are a quick and easy cash bonus...etc etc With no background in the breed or any sport, and without titles and credentials, pups are at risk....

There are always RISKS in any breeding - to your female, to the pups, to the families getting those pups....even 1 pup out of 8 who picks up the genetics that are negative from the pedigree is too many....what do you do when the family you sold a puppy to calls and says the pup is shy/nervy or inappropriately aggressive??? That he comes back at the owner for a correction???


I don't do risk because I don't want to be in that position....


I wish you luck with your pup - but really hope you will just enjoy her for herself and not breed.


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