What are the more serious GSD lines? - Page 15 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #141 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 08:00 PM
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cliff , unfortunately I knew of one club with multiple owners all getting related lines , and even littermates .

these dogs were crazy.

won't out-- the bite was hard but NOT CLEAR - eyes would roll back in head -that's how intense they were , but not a good intense - the dog was way way overloaded

--- sharp -- hyperactive , self traumatizing -- one had to have tail amputated and it still spun in circles.

one of the dogs , owned by a friend of mine was so "wrong" -- that it did do its worst , was taken away by animal control and put down

won't say more on this

want to get back to mycobra's because that is a good learning opportunity

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post #142 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 08:25 PM
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cliff , unfortunately I knew of one club with multiple owners all getting related lines , and even littermates .

these dogs were crazy.

won't out-- the bite was hard but NOT CLEAR - eyes would roll back in head -that's how intense they were , but not a good intense - the dog was way way overloaded

--- sharp -- hyperactive , self traumatizing -- one had to have tail amputated and it still spun in circles.

one of the dogs , owned by a friend of mine was so "wrong" -- that it did do its worst , was taken away by animal control and put down

won't say more on this

want to get back to mycobra's because that is a good learning opportunity
I don't know the club or the dogs, but sounds like it could be a training issue. "Eyes that roll back in the head" on a bite signifies handler conflict to me. Could be intense, but there is conflict. I usually see this when there is handler conflict and especially using hard compulsion to out a hard or conflicted dog.

I spend a lot of time on bite development and calm. full, pushing in grips in sport but especially with our K-9's. Boru had tremendous conflict when I first got him. A lot of compulsion had been used on him and he his very intense to say the least, his eyes would roll on the bite when approached. I have since gotten him over that and the growling, thrashing and eye roll has gone. He outs now, but it had to be done with out conflict. It took a while to rehabilitate him and get him to the place he is now, which is a different dog. I am quite certain that if I had taken him he very well may have been PTS. He would have eaten another handler that tried the wrong approach with him.
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post #143 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 01:52 AM
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I don't know the club or the dogs, but sounds like it could be a training issue. "Eyes that roll back in the head" on a bite signifies handler conflict to me. Could be intense, but there is conflict. I usually see this when there is handler conflict and especially using hard compulsion to out a hard or conflicted dog.

I spend a lot of time on bite development and calm. full, pushing in grips in sport but especially with our K-9's. Boru had tremendous conflict when I first got him. A lot of compulsion had been used on him and he his very intense to say the least, his eyes would roll on the bite when approached. I have since gotten him over that and the growling, thrashing and eye roll has gone. He outs now, but it had to be done with out conflict. It took a while to rehabilitate him and get him to the place he is now, which is a different dog. I am quite certain that if I had taken him he very well may have been PTS. He would have eaten another handler that tried the wrong approach with him.
Is growling when biting a bad thing? If so why?
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post #144 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 06:52 AM
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It's not a matter of growling being a bad thing, but more so the reason the dog is growling while on the bite. Two dogs ago I had real nice dog that when engaged as you upped the fight he would start growling as he upped the fight with you. This dog had great nerves, nice temperament and is on the streets of NJ city today as PSD.
Likewise, I have seen dogs that growled on bite that were not so secure, or had weaker nerves in terms of dealing with pressure during the bite. Growling in itself is really more communication to be read by owner/handler in my opinion, in that what is important is why is the dog growling.
Carmen, there are exceptions in this breed to everything...everyone knows of the parents of Boban and the way that specific breeding was forbidden because of results of THAT litter....yet the parents were involved in other breedings and nothing like that occurred. That breeding wasn't true to its genetics.
The Nabarschaft dogs are known for strong drives, but not for the extreme hyperactivity,imo.

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post #145 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 10:18 AM
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cliff said
"Carmen, there are exceptions in this breed to everything...everyone knows of the parents of Boban and the way that specific breeding was forbidden because of results of THAT litter....yet the parents were involved in other breedings and nothing like that occurred. That breeding wasn't true to its genetics."

Hi Cliff . I am totally aware of Boban following discussions of the original owner , following his move to west coast USA , having reports back from people that actually went to visit him there , and following his progeny.

should he have been bred ? No. $$$$
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post #146 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 02:48 PM
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Is growling when biting a bad thing? If so why?

Growling is not necessarily a bad thing, it is the overall picture of the dog and the dog's state of mind. It's like saying a dog wagging it's tail is happy. Tail wagging just means excitement, it can be happy, nervous, or even very aggressive. It is how the tail is wagged and the rest of the body language that is important.

When I look at a dog doing bite work I look at the entire animal. I watch the eyes, ears, tail, body language and how the dog is biting. I do not take one signal to sum up the dog's state of mind. But, when you see the eyes roll back into the head as the handler approaches, the dog becoming hectic, the bite changing from full to shallow, or moving, the thrashing and vocalizations on the bite, that all signifies something to me.

Growling by itself is not a bad thing, you just need to factor all the the other body language signals in to decide.

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post #147 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 03:37 PM
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Exactly Jim!
I agree Carmen, but Sven/Sindy when bred with other dogs had very stable dogs. We have all seen that type of hyperactivity in a GS that just can't settle. Unfortunately more people are moving in that direction as they breed for extreme drives for grips and obedience. Not all.....but way to many.
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post #148 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 08:42 PM
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Growling is not necessarily a bad thing, it is the overall picture of the dog and the dog's state of mind. It's like saying a dog wagging it's tail is happy. Tail wagging just means excitement, it can be happy, nervous, or even very aggressive. It is how the tail is wagged and the rest of the body language that is important.

When I look at a dog doing bite work I look at the entire animal. I watch the eyes, ears, tail, body language and how the dog is biting. I do not take one signal to sum up the dog's state of mind. But, when you see the eyes roll back into the head as the handler approaches, the dog becoming hectic, the bite changing from full to shallow, or moving, the thrashing and vocalizations on the bite, that all signifies something to me.

Growling by itself is not a bad thing, you just need to factor all the the other body language signals in to decide.
My breeder sent me a video of a pup which I liked very much, he had a nice full bite and he wrapped his hands around the item. He really wanted to go at it, eyes were focused, but he was growling during the bite.
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post #149 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 08:51 PM
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My breeder sent me a video of a pup which I liked very much, he had a nice full bite and he wrapped his hands around the item. He really wanted to go at it, eyes were focused, but he was growling during the bite.
I'd have to see the video and the pedigree to give an informed opinion. Hard to say with out seeing the video.

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post #150 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
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Growling is not necessarily a bad thing, it is the overall picture of the dog and the dog's state of mind. It's like saying a dog wagging it's tail is happy. Tail wagging just means excitement, it can be happy, nervous, or even very aggressive. It is how the tail is wagged and the rest of the body language that is important.

When I look at a dog doing bite work I look at the entire animal. I watch the eyes, ears, tail, body language and how the dog is biting. I do not take one signal to sum up the dog's state of mind. But, when you see the eyes roll back into the head as the handler approaches, the dog becoming hectic, the bite changing from full to shallow, or moving, the thrashing and vocalizations on the bite, that all signifies something to me.

Growling by itself is not a bad thing, you just need to factor all the the other body language signals in to decide.
Unfortunately any growling in IPO is looked at as bad. They don't look at the rest of the picture.

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