What are the more serious GSD lines? - Page 14 - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #131 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-05-2017, 02:19 PM
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Carmen, I actually agree with 80-90% of what you said. So don't feel like you need to tread lightly It's far too easy to be kennel blind, and I feel to use my dogs appropriately I need to stay as unbiased as possible. Unless we are talking about Kimber in which case she's perfect bwahaha.

The banshee scream as I call it, he's always done. So at this point, it's not something I look to for too much insight. I actually wasn't working him, my brother in-law who he'd never met was wearing the suit. I was just going to pick up the suit jacket for him and decided to screw with the dog. I can't post the rest of that video because my brother doesn't want it public.

For reference to the bark, here is the same dog at 4 months old and his first time ever being worked. He had been a dog where 80% of his work has been control. Not devolpment or drive building. Saying he's like a lot of LE dogs would be accurate too. Multiple agencies have tried to buy him.

https://youtu.be/b6PpyVDU9os
The banshee scream, love it! He's a nice dog. Would love to see more video of him being worked. Looks like he's got a solid grip.

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post #132 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-05-2017, 11:21 PM
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I hear frustrated prey reaction .

Iwould say yes. If I would describe this dog, I would describe him as over the top prey. IMO his aggression comes through prey aggression.

Can this dog do the job ? Oh , I would say so . He has the intensity .
Being reactive aggression is not saying that the dog lacks courage .

The "fire-up" might be quicker to ignite . Ultimately the threshold may have a lower ceiling ,
but not one that handi-caps the dog from getting the job done.

Once again yes. The "fire up" in this instance is slow,
because of me (the guy in the video). Watch when I initially enter the screen. Just walking and barely even looking in his direction. He gives some barks, but not much else. Then I decided to play with him. Once I turn and face him, he escalates a little more. Then once I advance is when he goes all out escalating to the max. In the military we called this escalation of force. I personally see it as a good thing. As he's reading the situation and adding enough to keep everything under control. I also agree that he is lower threshold.


there may be issues with being over wrought , too easily stimulated, not being clear and not coming down and returning to a base of stable and discerning.

Being overly stimulated. Perhaps, it does take him a while to come down as you say, but I do concider him clear and stable. That being said secondary OB is always a challenge with him. Luckily he also has a very high pack drive and a true eagerness to please his handler (my wife).
That is his saving grace.


physically the dog might have stress reactions which will create inflammation, adrenal exhaustion, digestive impacts -- more wear and tear in general.

I don't consider anything in this video as stressed. Like I said, his banshee scream is just what he does. I have pushed this dog hard.
I know his kryptonite, and have him work through that stress, so for me I feel that I know the difference with him. He has never shown any of the other issues you have described. I do think he can burn himself out because of all the intensity he brings. His drive will never let him quit, but I would say he never leaves anything in his reserves.


and speaking of general I am not targeting this dog - but the reactive aggressive dog in general.
My responses are in Blue. I put this dog up for discussion, so he is fair game to be discussed.


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post #133 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 07:21 AM
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Was Xander worse screaming wise as a young pup? Did he feel the need to chase everything that moves. Birds, bees, flies, leaves, brooms, mops, other dogs, cats, etc... Over excitement when being released from crate or just owner returning home resulting in more screaming?

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post #134 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 08:54 AM
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@Cobraracr
Was Xander worse screaming wise as a young pup? Did he feel the need to chase everything that moves. Birds, bees, flies, leaves, brooms, mops, other dogs, cats, etc... Over excitement when being released from crate or just owner returning home resulting in more screaming?

What I'm referring to as his banshee scream is the way he barks. His mouth goes open and never really shuts. He doesn't just sit there and scream all the time. He is high drive, but not neurotic. He doesn't chase leaves,flies birds or any of that. Well as a puppy, maybe mops, but they can look like toys.
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post #135 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-07-2017, 01:19 PM
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I had a co-own on a dog that was the offspring of Figo von der Wilden Nachtbarschaft http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...-nachbarschaft and Olympic's Lola http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...mpics-von-lola

She was dog-aggressive, especially with females, and after she had pups, she went a little crazy. She would NOT stop pacing, and would even spin in her kennel. She wore a track in the fenceline of the 4,000 sq. ft. field she was turned out in. She was eating an insane amount of food every day, and was still rail-thin, even though she was parasite-free. I can't recall what other tests were done to try to get to the bottom of the problem, but I do know nothing was found.

The main owner did do some schutzhund with her, and she had an extremely hard bite, and didn't like to out. Unfortunately, the same was true when she latched onto the owner's other very pregnant bitch, when someone didn't close a gate properly. She found a new home for her after that.

Any insights into what might have gone wrong, either with the breeding or other factors (hormones, environment, etc.)?

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post #136 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-07-2017, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mycobraracr View Post
What I'm referring to as his banshee scream is the way he barks. His mouth goes open and never really shuts. He doesn't just sit there and scream all the time. He is high drive, but not neurotic. He doesn't chase leaves,flies birds or any of that. Well as a puppy, maybe mops, but they can look like toys.
Gotcha. I was just wondering if really high prey drive pups come out of the always in prey with maturity and the introduction of defense and pressure when they got out of the puppy phase and matured a little. Obviously dogs differ and what is true for one may not be for another.
In your guys experience do most or even some dogs with super high prey drive have the ability to switch over to serious protection type work. Beyond just prey/play.
And what does everyone think about Kraftwork dogs?
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post #137 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-07-2017, 10:33 PM
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I had a co-own on a dog that was the offspring of Figo von der Wilden Nachtbarschaft Figo von der Wilden Nachbarschaft and Olympic's Lola Olympics von Lola

She was dog-aggressive, especially with females, and after she had pups, she went a little crazy. She would NOT stop pacing, and would even spin in her kennel. She wore a track in the fenceline of the 4,000 sq. ft. field she was turned out in. She was eating an insane amount of food every day, and was still rail-thin, even though she was parasite-free. I can't recall what other tests were done to try to get to the bottom of the problem, but I do know nothing was found.

The main owner did do some schutzhund with her, and she had an extremely hard bite, and didn't like to out. Unfortunately, the same was true when she latched onto the owner's other very pregnant bitch, when someone didn't close a gate properly. She found a new home for her after that.

Any insights into what might have gone wrong, either with the breeding or other factors (hormones, environment, etc.)?
I see alot of sources of aggression in the pedigree...and unfortunately, dog aggression, especially female to female aggression is not uncommon in this breed....in Europe, these dogs are more commonly kennel dogs, and not dogs who live in the house, thus, the hectic, not able to settle aspect is not considered a factor in breeding - the dogs are in a kennel and the owners don't care about their behavior as long as they grip and bark and do sport...nothing you describe is out of the ordinary for a WGWL dog. Here in America, many breeders are a bit more cognizant of the need to produce dogs who can live as family members.


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post #138 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-08-2017, 03:45 AM
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What I'm trying to get a feel for is what's the difference between a breeding that will produce a serious, hard dog with good discernment, and a hard dog that's going to go after other dogs, and maybe the postman or the neighbours?

This dog's pacing was SO obsessive that she was getting (IIRC) 12 cups of food a day, and was STILL so thin you would have been tempted to call Animal Control! We couldn't keep her in the house, as both the primary owner and I had cats and other dogs. I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have been safe around my friend's daschund, Limo, and the cats would have been history, too.
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post #139 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-08-2017, 07:20 AM
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This dog was an exception to her genetics in terms that level of hyperactivity,imo. Not so much for the dog's seriousness. I have seen these type of dogs that cannot settle with or without stimulation, but never litters of these dogs. This pedigree wasn't aimed at this level of drive, but it is set up for very very strong dogs. I would wager that neither parent was that incessant. These dogs( I'm talking EXTREME hyper as attesting by 12 cups of food and still skinny, and never stops description) are abnormal and pop up once in while in our breed unless you are breeding for generations for drive. When I hear people describing a WL as like this, I cringe because this behavior is more aberration that type of breeding.
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post #140 of 156 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 07:51 PM
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Interesting thread. I am also getting a working line, but I think "seriousness" is subjective. Is it the dog that bites anything that moves? Or is it the dog that can own you from just one look?
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