Vaccines and Local Laws - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 02:15 PM Thread Starter
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Vaccines and Local Laws

So I am looking into vaccine protocols (typical and more minimal) and was looking into my county's rabies laws. So, the dog has to be vaccinated for rabies at 12 weeks so you can license the dog, which is required at 12 weeks. I do not want to give a rabies vaccine around the dog's 5-1 vaccine so the immune system can deal with everything its been given. So, if I do the distemper/parvo combos at 8-11-14 weeks, that means I could maybe do rabies at 16 weeks, but at that point I am behind the curve and have to pay a fine through my county. Not only that, the fee to register an unspayed dog is 2.5 times the cost of a spayed one. So instead of paying $17 total, I have to pay $46 for unspayed, plus $4 fee for registering late. Granted, we are talking $50 instead of $17, but jeez, they sure don't make it easy if you're trying to do right by your dog. As for the spay/neuter, I know there are all types of opinions here, but we will be doing it after she is one per our breeders recommendation (which I 100% agree with). Anyway, anyone else run into any issues like this? Any worry of doing rabies at 16 weeks instead of 12? Separate from other vaccines instead of with??

Thanks guys!
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 02:46 PM
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I do it at 6mos, I don't even know what age they want it in our county. If for some reason they questioned me, I'd say I just got him or he didn't live in this county till now.
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 03:22 PM
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If I had known then what I know now I would have taken the Holistic Approach to the Vaccination Schedule and would have learned more about titer testing. I would recommend doing some reading before vaccinating a puppy that young especially with the rabies shot.
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
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If I had known then what I know now I would have taken the Holistic Approach to the Vaccination Schedule and would have learned more about titer testing. I would recommend doing some reading before vaccinating a puppy that young especially with the rabies shot.
I so agree. I want to do minimal vaccines and titer when possible. Just got off the phone with my breeder. I wanted to do shots myself but was told I need to let the vet handle it or parvo/distemper warranty is voided. She did also tell us that we are not to do rabies within two weeks of the 5 in 1 as well...
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 03:49 PM
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Please do not let your vet give your puppy that toxic cocktail (5 in 1).

And NEVER give a Rabies shot at the same time as other vacc's! Dr. Dodds says at least 3 weeks inbetween.

Vaccinations should be separated (see below). It would be like you going into Walgreens and getting a flu shot, a pneumonia shot, a meningitis shot, a chicken pox shot, and a whooping cough shot ALL at one time!!!!!

Research the particular "risks" in your area for certain diseases before throwing ALL of those at your pup. Then make an informed decision on which ones will be beneficial.

Here is Dr. Dodds - Vaccine Protocol.

Updated information from Dr. Dodds:

Per Dr. Dodds: " I made significant and important changes to my vaccination protocol. Previously, I recommended giving the last distemper + parvovirus vaccine at 14-16 weeks of age. Based on the latest research, Dr. Ronald Schultz informed me last week that another parvovirus vaccine needs to be given at 18 weeks old to assure protection against the virulent parvovirus strain 2c. "

VACCINATION PROTOCOL:

9 - 10 weeks of age

Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV
e.g. Merck Nobivac (Intervet Progard) Puppy DPV


14 – 15 weeks of age
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV


18 weeks of age
Parvovirus only, MLV

Note: New research states that last puppy parvovirus vaccine should be at 18 weeks old.


20 weeks or older, if allowable by law
Rabies – give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines


1 year old
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV



1 year old
Rabies – give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines


Canine NON-Core Vaccines: Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Search results for: core vaccines
"Dr. Dodds considers infectious canine hepatitis (adenovirus-1), canine adenovirus-2, bordetella, canine influenza, canine coronavirus, leptospirosis, and Lyme regional and situational. Please research the prevalence in your area, and discuss it with your veterinarian."


Articles
Vets On Vaccines: Vets On Vaccines - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Leptospirosis Vaccines adverse reaction, Dr. Jordan DVM

Frequently Asked Questions about Titers and Vaccination Protocol by Dr. Dodds
Puppy and Kitten Vaccinations: Timing is critical
Rabies: The Science & the Current Law
Vaccines: When too much of a good thing turns bad
Vaccines: When too much of a good thing turns bad (Part 2)
Avoid Unnecessary Vaccines with Titer Tests (Part 3)

Response: Immune-Mediated Thrombocytopenia Report and Article
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Is the puppy’s severe physical reaction due to a routine vaccine?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: What should I do to protect my adult dogs during a parvovirus outbreak?
To Vaccinate or Not to Vaccinate for Infectious Canine Hepatitis?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: I had a dog who had a bad reaction to the rabies vaccine and now I am concerned about giving it to my other dogs. What should I do?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Kennel Cough Complex Vaccines
Yes or No to Snake Vaccines?
Canine Influenza H3N8 Article - Dr. Dodds’ Additions
Clinical Approaches to Managing and Treating Adverse Vaccine Reactions
Dr. Schultz on Lyme Vaccine
Dr. Schultz Update on Leptospirosis Vaccines (2012)
More on Vaccine Titer Testing
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Newborns and immunity from mothers
Mercury-Induced Inflammation: Yet Another Example of ASIA Syndrome
Canine Non-Core Vaccines
Snapshot of Leptospirosis Strains and Vaccines
Puppy Vaccination Schedule and Socialization: Can they go together?
Kennel Cough Complex: A complicated phrase for the canine common cold
A Pilot Study: Dose Vaccines for Small Dogs
More on Vaccinations & Small Dog Vaccine Study
Canine Influenza H3N2 Outbreak
Immune Disorders and Vaccines
Know Your Bordetella Vaccine


The Purdue Vaccination Studies and Auto-antibodies by Catherine O’Driscoll on April 26, 2011 The Purdue Vaccination Studies and Auto-antibodies - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots by Dogs Naturally on July 12, 2011
Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Protecting Your Puppy From Disease:
Protecting Your Puppy From Disease - Dogs Naturally Magazine

There is also a 4 part video series on vaccinations by Dr. Ron Schultz and Dr. Karen Becker: https://healthypets.mercola.com/site...-vaccines.aspx



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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 08:18 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momto2GSDs View Post
Please do not let your vet give your puppy that toxic cocktail (5 in 1).

And NEVER give a Rabies shot at the same time as other vacc's! Dr. Dodds says at least 3 weeks inbetween.

Vaccinations should be separated (see below). It would be like you going into Walgreens and getting a flu shot, a pneumonia shot, a meningitis shot, a chicken pox shot, and a whooping cough shot ALL at one time!!!!!

Research the particular "risks" in your area for certain diseases before throwing ALL of those at your pup. Then make an informed decision on which ones will be beneficial.

Here is Dr. Dodds - Vaccine Protocol.

Updated information from Dr. Dodds:

Per Dr. Dodds: " I made significant and important changes to my vaccination protocol. Previously, I recommended giving the last distemper + parvovirus vaccine at 14-16 weeks of age. Based on the latest research, Dr. Ronald Schultz informed me last week that another parvovirus vaccine needs to be given at 18 weeks old to assure protection against the virulent parvovirus strain 2c. "
[FONT=&quot]
VACCINATION PROTOCOL:

9 - 10 weeks of age

Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV
e.g. Merck Nobivac (Intervet Progard) Puppy DPV


14 – 15 weeks of age
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV


18 weeks of age
Parvovirus only, MLV

Note: New research states that last puppy parvovirus vaccine should be at 18 weeks old.


20 weeks or older, if allowable by law
Rabies – give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines


1 year old
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV



1 year old
Rabies


I printed out this exact form to discuss with my vet. I don’t disagree with you, on less is better. The breeder does 5 in 1 before pups go home so I can’t do much about that. I’ll be curious what the vet says and if she’s cool with a minimal schedule. I should probably call and discuss with her before I schedule first appointment!

Thanks for linking up those other articles. I will check them out.

Another note, did you do heart worm preventative or just titer every 5 months?
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 09:48 PM
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Re doing the rabies yourself -- be careful, as it may be voided as though you didn't give it in the eyes of your local authorities if not given by a vet. That's bad, because then you would have to re-administer it at the vet office (double vaccinate) to comply with the law! Local laws differ on this. In my city, to license the dog and comply with the rabies requirement, the rabies vaccine has to be given by a licensed veterinarian, and they have to note the vial serial number and expiration date on the vaccination certificate. Otherwise the dog is treated as unvaccinated by the authorities.

You cannot titer for HW, and there's no holistic treatment for it that has been clinically shown to be effective. If you're in an area where they exist, you have to be on prevention to be safe. We start them on HW prevention no later than 12 weeks in rescue, but some products are labeled for 9 weeks. Around that point, the maternal protection wears off, and they're vulnerable. You won't know they're heartworm-positive until 6 months after infection, and by that point, you have adult HWs that are too big to kill with a monthly dose of prevention. Now you're looking at a brutal treatment protocol with an arsenic derivative and 3 mo. of crate rest to kill the HWs. See Gatorbytes' thread about what her sweet dog has been through!
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Last edited by Magwart; 10-25-2017 at 09:53 PM.
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 10:07 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Magwart View Post
Re doing the rabies yourself -- be careful, as it may be voided as though you didn't give it in the eyes of your local authorities if not given by a vet. That's bad, because then you would have to re-administer it at the vet office (double vaccinate) to comply with the law! Local laws differ on this. In my city, to license the dog and comply with the rabies requirement, the rabies vaccine has to be given by a licensed veterinarian, and they have to note the vial serial number and expiration date on the vaccination certificate. Otherwise the dog is treated as unvaccinated by the authorities.

You cannot titer for HW, and there's no holistic treatment for it that has been clinically shown to be effective. If you're in an area where they exist, you have to be on prevention to be safe. We start them on HW prevention no later than 12 weeks in rescue, but some products are labeled for 9 weeks. Around that point, the maternal protection wears off, and they're vulnerable. You won't know they're heartworm-positive until 6 months after infection, and by that point, you have adult HWs that are too big to kill with a monthly dose of prevention. Now you're looking at a brutal treatment protocol with an arsenic derivative and 3 mo. of crate rest to kill the HWs. See Gatorbytes' thread about what her sweet dog has been through!
I was not planning on doing rabies, as it has to be done by a vet to “count.” Yeah def don’t want her to double dose on that.

As for heart worm, I saw a clinic that does a heart worm test. If it takes 4-6 months to get it, I figured if you tested every 4 you’d be safe. Again, one more chemical that is going in the body. Ugh. Guess I just need to find a vet I trust and go from there!
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-25-2017, 10:27 PM
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Nooooo. You're misunderstanding because there's so much false information on the Internet. Heartworm tests are done annually to make sure you haven't had a breakthrough infection (or missed a dose) with a dog kept on monthly prevention.

I work with heartworm-positive dogs constantly in dog rescue. It takes 1 month of missed prevention to get it! ONE!!! The HW meds work retroactively to kill the baby larvae, and there's a small window in which they work before the larvae get too big to kill with prevention. So here's what happens if you wait 4 months to test to see what happens:

Mo. 1 -- infection from a mosquito -- W1 worms start growing
Mo. 2 -- more infection W2 worms start growing
Mo. 3-- more infection W3 worms start growing
Mo. 4 --more infection W4 worms start growing
Test Mo. 4 -- It will test negative. It takes 6-7 months before worms growing in the dog are big enough to produce antigen that the test detects. They're there, just not detectable. So you say "yay, negative," and keep skipping prevention, unaware your dog has them but the tests won't pick them up for a few more months.

We continue getting new worms in months 5-8 -- the class of W5-W8 (Where the number tells us the month it started growing).

Now we retest in month 8, on your proposed program.

Dog has been positive since month 1, but now the W1 and W2 worms are finally old enough to produce antibodies that the test can detect, and now maybe they're even breeding inside your dog. If so, then you have microfilariae circulating in the dog's blood, so you're also infecting all the wild canids (coyotes, foxes) and unprotected pet dogs in your neighborhood, anytime a mosquito bites your dog. Arsenic treatment is unfortunately needed. We also have to put the dog on 30 days of a pretty high dose of antibiotics (!) before we can start HW treatment with the arsenic.

In month 8, W3-W7 aren't yet detectable, but they're in there too. W1-W6 are all now too old to kill with prevention. You've also got some juveniles from W7 worms that aren't big enough to kill with arsenic, but can still be killed with prevention.

Now in mo. 9 or 10, we finally start 2 months of very painful shots that hurt so badly the dog may not be able to stand up the next day after each one. And start crate rest -- the dog can't even be let outside to potty except on leash, as an elevated heartrate could kill the dog. So after blasting the dog with 30 days of antibiotics, we now blast it with arsenic.

So to recap: we've damaged the heart and pulmonary arteries, possibly shortened life span, destroyed gut flora with a long course of abx, injected muscles with arsenic, put the dog through a lot of pain, and subjected it to misery of no exercise or fun for 2 months. Oh, and spent around $1,000. All to avoid a little low-dose heartworm prevention? No way. The chemicals you REALLY want to avoid are the long course of antibiotics and the arsenic needed to treat the HW. That stuff is wicked.
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Last edited by Magwart; 10-25-2017 at 10:33 PM.
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-26-2017, 12:00 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Magwart View Post
Nooooo. You're misunderstanding because there's so much false information on the Internet. Heartworm tests are done annually to make sure you haven't had a breakthrough infection (or missed a dose) with a dog kept on monthly prevention.

I work with heartworm-positive dogs constantly in dog rescue. It takes 1 month of missed prevention to get it! ONE!!! The HW meds work retroactively to kill the baby larvae, and there's a small window in which they work before the larvae get too big to kill with prevention. So here's what happens if you wait 4 months to test to see what happens:

Mo. 1 -- infection from a mosquito -- W1 worms start growing
Mo. 2 -- more infection W2 worms start growing
Mo. 3-- more infection W3 worms start growing
Mo. 4 --more infection W4 worms start growing
Test Mo. 4 -- It will test negative. It takes 6-7 months before worms growing in the dog are big enough to produce antigen that the test detects. They're there, just not detectable. So you say "yay, negative," and keep skipping prevention, unaware your dog has them but the tests won't pick them up for a few more months.

We continue getting new worms in months 5-8 -- the class of W5-W8 (Where the number tells us the month it started growing).

Now we retest in month 8, on your proposed program.

Dog has been positive since month 1, but now the W1 and W2 worms are finally old enough to produce antibodies that the test can detect, and now maybe they're even breeding inside your dog. If so, then you have microfilariae circulating in the dog's blood, so you're also infecting all the wild canids (coyotes, foxes) and unprotected pet dogs in your neighborhood, anytime a mosquito bites your dog. Arsenic treatment is unfortunately needed. We also have to put the dog on 30 days of a pretty high dose of antibiotics (!) before we can start HW treatment with the arsenic.

In month 8, W3-W7 aren't yet detectable, but they're in there too. W1-W6 are all now too old to kill with prevention. You've also got some juveniles from W7 worms that aren't big enough to kill with arsenic, but can still be killed with prevention.

Now in mo. 9 or 10, we finally start 2 months of very painful shots that hurt so badly the dog may not be able to stand up the next day after each one. And start crate rest -- the dog can't even be let outside to potty except on leash, as an elevated heartrate could kill the dog. So after blasting the dog with 30 days of antibiotics, we now blast it with arsenic.

So to recap: we've damaged the heart and pulmonary arteries, possibly shortened life span, destroyed gut flora with a long course of abx, injected muscles with arsenic, put the dog through a lot of pain, and subjected it to misery of no exercise or fun for 2 months. Oh, and spent around $1,000. All to avoid a little low-dose heartworm prevention? No way. The chemicals you REALLY want to avoid are the long course of antibiotics and the arsenic needed to treat the HW. That stuff is wicked.
Thanks for explaining it so succinctly. I definitely don't want to cause more harm! When do you start heart worm meds? Like at 8 weeks? We live in a place where we will have to treat year round bc of our high temps. Also, any particular brand or does it not matter?
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