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post #11 of 157 (permalink) Old 03-23-2006, 07:04 AM
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Re: Electronic Training Collars

*nods my head at middleofnowhere's post*

In my opinion, there is just not much reason to use an e-collar. There should be an extreme need to fix something life threatening before you would resort using electric shock on an animal you supposedly "love". I can't condone using a shock collar for general obedience training or even proofing for competition - the ribbon just doesn't mean that much to me. You really jeopardize your relationship with your dog when you resort to things like shock.

I've trained dogs to utility titles (directed retrieves, scent discrimination, directed jumping, etc.) and have never had to use a shock collar. My dogs know multitudes of tricks and I haven't had to use a shock collar. I can (mostly) trust four of the five dogs off-leash and I haven't used a shock collar. I'm not saying I never would, but I really have to weigh the reasons why before I use one. Teaching my youngest dog to not go after moose might be one use - but until I have the opportunity to do some training around moose I can't justify using it.

I lose all respect for a trainer when they use shock as a shortcut. It's not that I don't believe in corrections, I just don't believe in extremes. And yes, I have a shock collar here - and yes, I've felt the lowest level and used the collar sparingly at one point.

And like the prong collar, if a person is going to use shock then they should acknowledge that the reason it works is that it causes pain. Sugar-coating it by saying "it just causes a little discomfort" is only making the person feel better. I would be much more comfortable with the concept of a shock collar if the person got shocked every time they used it on the dog - then they might use it sparingly and only when absolutely necessary.

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post #12 of 157 (permalink) Old 03-23-2006, 11:14 AM
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Re: Electronic Training Collars

I've been debating about trying one. I've never liked them either. I've printed out all the information on Lou Castle's website to try to learn about it first. IF I decide to purchase one, it will be only for off-leash control/hikes, not for any OB training. I don't consider myself a lazy trainer. We take lots of walks and go to training 1-3 times/week. BUT there are times that he is off-leash and if he sees a deer/bunny/dog, I am not 100% convinced he will listen to me. IF I use it, it will be for my piece of mind & his safety while off-leash

Sandy
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post #13 of 157 (permalink) Old 03-23-2006, 01:04 PM
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Re: Electronic Training Collars

All I would say about using it for game chasing is get someone to help you with the crittering technique UP FRONT not as a correction for chasing after the dog has gone throught the momentary stare phase (my dog actually stared, froze and pointed like a pointer, then chased)

My dogs do NOT wear the collar in he woods - or very much at all to be honest, (yes, many folks advocate/have them on the dogs all the time). However, I was still able to recall her after she stumbled on a group a 4 deer that took off right in front of her.

If you don't do the preliminary training, once the prey drive is engaged you might have to give a terribly harsh correction - one that could either shut down the dog, or the dog will power through it, or displace aggression due to pain. I have seen this done and it is NOT something I EVER want to see again.

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post #14 of 157 (permalink) Old 03-23-2006, 01:33 PM
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Re: Electronic Training Collars

[ QUOTE ]
I do NOT like them to cover up for 'lazy' owners/trainers who fail to take the longer/harder road to FIRST properly train their dogs with classes/instructors/time/socialization............................

[/ QUOTE ]

i would need to disagre with you on this
owners to use this and prongs or any other thing they can think of to make it easy for them and make it fast
BUT not all the dogs like that and not all the trainers and owners.
when a Lotar dog, maybe a serius PP dog or any other protection dog sport or heavy duty work with such things it's for sure NOT to make it easy it's to make it safe
the toll is what he is depending in which hands, for what and on which dog, you can make it really bad or really good

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post #15 of 157 (permalink) Old 03-23-2006, 01:43 PM
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Re: Electronic Training Collars

This is the only time I wished I had one...when the dog split to chase deer. Once they're hunting and off to the races, and can't hear you for all the prey drive coursing thru their brains- THAT's when a remote with a red button would be indespensible. It takes only a few seconds to be a distant crash in the woods, and until we can fly, this might be the best option, especially if the dog can't find his way back to you once the chase is over.
Never have used one though.


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post #16 of 157 (permalink) Old 03-23-2006, 02:05 PM
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Re: Electronic Training Collars

[ QUOTE ]
This is the only time I wished I had one...when the dog split to chase deer. Once they're hunting and off to the races, and can't hear you for all the prey drive coursing thru their brains- THAT's when a remote with a red button would be indespensible. It takes only a few seconds to be a distant crash in the woods, and until we can fly, this might be the best option, especially if the dog can't find his way back to you once the chase is over.
Never have used one though.

[/ QUOTE ]

......And THAT is how most people try to use the things and it does not always work like you think it may. A high shock to a dog not TRAINED using the ecollar may have unintended consequences!.

Having seen plenty of dogs not PRETRAINED against crittering run deer, you may as well lay your coat on the ground and come back the next day to get the dog.

Nancy



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post #17 of 157 (permalink) Old 03-23-2006, 09:49 PM
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Re: Electronic Training Collars

the trainer i use explained the e-collar to me as the equivalent of a tap on the shoulder. it is to get the dog's attention. it is NOT to hurt the dog. and the buzz is not a 'punishment' - not like a leash correction, but something that accompanies both commands and corrections. i use one with my dog when we are doing off-leash jogs or hikes, and we used it some on-lead in training exercises where she is some distance away from me. on its scale of 1 to 8 (8 being the highest shock), she's usually on a 2 or 3, the most she has ever been up to is a 5, and that involved critter chasing.

i would Never, never, never ever suggest anybody use one without first receiving some serious supervision by a professional trainer. like anything else, it can be abused. now, for those folks who do abuse it because they're lazy, stupid, or just plain mean, [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/09_mad.gif[/img] i'm not opposed to cranking up the collar on their...well, nevermind.

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post #18 of 157 (permalink) Old 03-24-2006, 07:20 AM
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Re: Electronic Training Collars

My ethics for using the e-collar is; does it benefit the dog? Dog off lead AND under control is much better off than on lead all the time. Off-leash exercise can't be beat and many dogs only have that opportunity in public or wild places. A missed recall can have dire consequences, so if you can't be sure with other training methods, then I'd use an e-collar rather than keeping the dog on lead forever.
From the previous thread on this, it sounds like all or most who use it on this board are using it for the same reason.
As for professionals, it was a professional who blasted my dog. The guy had certificates all over his wall (legitimate) of one of the top e-collar training schools in America. He used an e-collar to train the dog to do everything, and his dog looked skittish (he told me it was a rescue) but in hindsight, the dog showed hallmarks of intensive e-collar training.
Needless to say, I researched on the web, and trained on my own, backing off and taking things very slowly. Professionals come in all flavours. Just a warning

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post #19 of 157 (permalink) Old 03-24-2006, 09:04 AM
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Re: Electronic Training Collars

kaslkaos has a good point about not all trainers being 'good'. Why it's important we have to do OUR research on the front end to make sure what we want, and the method we want to use to TRAIN our dog, is the same as what the trainer is doing.

The way I see the e-collar is there are 2 methods it can be used for. As a slamming correction AFTER the dog is doing something wrong (like the bark collar will do, and the way we CAN use a training collar). So say dog gets into trash again, we activate the collar to punish them so they will now avoid the trash can (hopefully). You don't need to read up on how to do this, you don't have to train your dog, this takes no time. Dog does something you don't like, you come down on the e-collar like the Wrath of God. Can end up with a fearful, timid and confused dog who is not sure when/where/how the next time God will again strike them down.

Or the way I prefer, and it seems most of us prefer, to use the collar. To have the dogs as an active participant in the LEARNING process, and the collar is just a tool we can use because there is no leash. THIS METHOD TAKES TIME TIME TIME TIME. And that's why owners mess it up because they instead try to have it be a quick fix, they scan the first page of directions and then immediately start it with their dog. You must already have the MONTHS of previous training in place so your dog absolutely knows the commands (for me it's the 'come' ) and is good in most all situation and when on leash does perfectly! You start at the LOWEST level (the point is not to PUNISH, but to remind them you still have a connection to them) and ONLY raise the level IF THEY CONTINUE TO CHOOSE TO IGNORE YOU. You start with the leash on (and the e-collar) so you can still guide them when they are learning the e-collar thing.

What the e-collar is supposed to do, is remind the dogs to ALWAYS keep one ear on us and still obey us, EVEN WITHOUT THE LEASH. And, when you do this properly, eventually the dogs listen and obey us, off leash, EVEN WITHOUT the e-collar. You may have it on them still, but it's a 'just in case' thing. I rarely if EVER have to activate the collar. And that's the point. NOW my dogs listen to me, keep an eye on me, and obey. It's not about me having to constantly have to remind them by using it. It's that I don't have to use it BECAUSE THEY ARE NOW TRAINED AND PAY ATTENTION TO ME OFF LEASH. And not because they are fearful, or confused. But because, with the help of me reading up, watching the videos, purchasing a good collar (over $200) AND WORKING WITH A GOOD TRAINER, and being consistant consistant consistant, with the training.




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post #20 of 157 (permalink) Old 03-24-2006, 09:47 AM
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Re: Electronic Training Collars

[ QUOTE ]
kaslkaos has a good point about not all trainers being 'good'. Why it's important we have to do OUR research on the front end to make sure what we want, and the method we want to use to TRAIN our dog, is the same as what the trainer is doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

ABSOLUTELY AGREED!!!! And with your post as well. This is not an easier quicker route - just a different one. It is easier to make mistakes with ecollars than other methods.

I think you should become very familiar with dogs who have been trained under the method being proposed. Do you like what you see? Do you have doubts? Do the dogs seem to enjoy their commands or are they doing them only because they have to?

While I worked with Lou a lot on the phone it was only after working with teammates who had attended some of his seminars and seeing their dogs.

Even they, however backed off using the collar for everything, particularly the detection and search work itself and none of our dogs actually works with a collar on.

Nancy



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