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Dominant dog - Pros and cons?

9K views 57 replies 18 participants last post by  Chip Blasiole 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi All!

My first time posting on your forum. I've probably read 1000+ messages.

I possibly might have a dominant dog or it's my dog clearly taking advantage of my handler inexperience (my first time owning a dog and I question my sanity for getting a shepherd)!
MY QUESTION: WHY would anyone want a dominant dog? What are the advantages and disadvantages of having one? My arms are tired of being bruised and biting abrasions.

My pup (male, neutered) of 8.5 months now, Tofu, was previously assessed 2 months ago as being dominant and territorial by a head trainer and I followed their private trainer on applying corrections with a Halti/gentle leader to control the biting that I was getting from frustration, refusal to obey, leash reactivity and redirection. This trainer felt that Tofu responds well to Halti corrections and didn't feel the need to move to a nylon slip or prong collar, despite my asking.

I STILL find that I'm constantly having power struggles with Tofu. I have since contacted a Schutzhund Club in the vicinity. The representative spoke to me at length. Via my description, she agreed that he's dominant because there's always a 4 second hesitation before executing a command SLOWLY and she said it's the dog thinking if it's "worth doing or to disobey". He's mouthy when I tell him to get off furniture and there are fights when I need to remove garbage out of his mouth because he won't drop it (no amount of Halti tugging/trading helps). When I escalate the corrections, Tofu strengthens his biting/lunging. She noted that that dominance cannot be untrained and it's a lifetime of management to keep the dog from getting one up on me. She owns two dominant dogs herself. She suggested an experienced Schutzhund trainer and we're going for an evaluation today. Fingers crossed that the evaluator today will just tel me that his reactions are just because I'm an inexperienced handler and that he's truly not dominant.

Background: I'm his second household and got him at 18 weeks from a family with 4 young children under the age of 6 years old. The mother said she was diagnosed with cancer and didn't have the energy for the puppy. Claimed that Tofu was never dominant. They admit to never having trained him at all; clearly he didn't know how to walk on a leash and was goin gup on furniture. Tofu has a pink mark on his nose and I now wonder if he was severely punished at one point and hence never showed dominance there. I initially followed a purely positive trainer for teething biting but I think that might have increased his confidence when I'd yelp or remove myself from room as instructed. I've gone through 3 private instructors with multiple lessons. I had a phone conversation with an online trained that I respect in Washington State, Sean McDaniel, who advocated using a nylon slip. In none of his training does he promote this, but he says in his private practice he's had a lot of experience with dominant/aggressive dogs. He said it'll only take 2 occurrences for a dog to normal understand that I am in charge. I haven't escalated up to this yet. We living downtown and he's not spooked by any of the people, noise and cars. He's extremely friendly with strangers and plays well at the dog park (provided that the other dog enjoys having it's neck pulled). Per weekday, we are out 4hrs and walk 12km (7.5 miles) of city walking, 30-45 minutes at dog park and 30 minutes training. We do more on weekends.
 

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#3 · (Edited)
I'm going to guess that you don't have a truly genetically dominant dog and that the dog has learned to take advantage of your handler inexperience. The first clue is that you have a white GSD. While I suppose it is possible that a white GSD could be genetically dominant, I think the odds are low because of the focus of breeding being primarily on coat color and not strong temperament. True genetic dominance has value in the right amount and in the right hands when the dog is being trained in bite work because the right amount of dominance can add power to the bite work. You probably have what you would see on every episode of Cesar Milan's old show, where the dog has taken the leadership role because of the handler. It is also revealing that the person who assessed your dog as dominant and then recommended a gentle leader. A gentle leader on a truly dominant dog is ridiculous. The person in the schutzhund club sound like she gave you bad information and an inaccurate assessment of your dog. I seriously doubt your dog had any good foundation training where food and or prey drive were used to shape behaviors and increase your dog's motivation to be obedient. The pink spot on your dog's nose is likely related to his white coat/pigment. You most likely have a persistent, challenging dog with no foundation training paired with an inexperienced handler. Seriously dominant GSDs can send their handler, even experienced ones, to the hospital. Your dog likely waits four seconds to follow a command because he wasn't provided a motivational foundation. When that occurs, if the dog knows the command and is still hesitant, he gets a fast sharp correction on the prong, but that takes timing and skill and requires experience. Many sport trainers looking for very fast sits and downs still give prong corrections even though the dog had a proper foundation and knows the command. They are punished because the command is followed too slowly. It is not a brutal correction and the dog is not phased. Plus, dogs that have never received proper corrections early often act like they are being killed and get reactive because they have not learned from an early age that a prong correction will not kill them and they manage to work through it, unless they have significant temperament issues. Biting at 8.5 months is common and there are different ways to deal with it, and it will go away with maturity and correct handling. The other good news in addition to not having a truly genetic dominant dog is that you described your dog as social and not dog aggressive, with decent nerves. You are going to have to get some help from a competent trainer, which obviously, is not that easy to find. Then you need to go back and work on foundation training using food and a toy if he has decent prey drive, as well as positive punishment with a prong collar. the problem, I'm guessing, is that you don't have the skills to know what to do. Knowing how to correctly size and use a prong collar takes experience. The problem is fixable, but you need the right help and so far, it sounds like you have received incompetent evaluations of you dog and bad advice. In one photo it looks like you have a harness on your dog, which allows you no control over the dog and gives him a greater advantage in disobeying you.
 
#5 ·
Dominant is not a trait but a behavior. E.g. you can only be dominant in certain situations like if you have people under you and you assert yourself to them. But then if your superior calls you to his/her(!!) office, you can't show dominance unless you want to be fired. True dominant behavior is not offensive or aggressive; it is assertive and confident. They don't instigate fights but won't back down either from a thread. They are stable and fair (among dogs). But if you give dogs the reins, they will rein you.
Most dogs that people call "dominant" are untrained, unmanaged and allowed to be bullies.
 
#9 ·
Most people have never seen a truly dominant dog. IMO, a dominant dog will fight you instead of doing something against his will. I don't mean nip at you to try and punk you out. I mean truly fight you with intent to do you harm.

The chances of a white GSD being a dominant dog are pretty much zero. That isn't a negative comment towards white dogs.

You don't want a dominant dog. A hard dog, confident dog, towards the extreme end of willful and courageous, sure. If you have the experience and support to handle a dog like that, they are a blast.

I think the OP needs a couple one on one sessions with an experienced trainer and a plan to work on OB and good manners.
 
#10 ·
Thanks for the detailed posts and analysis. Glad to know that a white shepherd isn't normally, genetically dominant. I feel that it's very likely that my dog is taking advantage of me. During a training session on the Halti, the moment when I handed the leash to the trainer, my dog whipped his head around and was completely aware of who was holding the reigns. Trainer noticed the change in focus. It's been 2 months that we've been using a Halti; previously, it was harness (because we have ignorant laws here that forbids collars on dogs >45 pounds, citing painful to dog). I'm willing to risk the fine and start on a prong collar.

I bought a Herm Sprenger 2.5mm today and hopefully will get a lesson today on fitting it. I like Tyler Muto's video on introducing prong pressure I understand that if the prong excites the dog too much to redirecting on me, that I might need to move to a nylon slip collar. I will save any e-collar training for a much later date for off-leash proofing.

@David Winners: All my trainings have been private one-on-one sessions to address biting. :frown2: Like Chip Blasiole said, it's really hard to find a GOOD trainer and hence why I'm going to see a 4th trainer today that is an hour drive away. I've been following a lot of Michael Ellis for the basic obedience and luring.

Did anyone watch the video put out by Ed Frawley on Leerburg "Dealing with Dominant and Aggressive Dogs"? He gives some insane (according to me) 7/10 corrections on prong. Is this normal?

This is us with out basic commands at age 7.5 months: Does anyone have comments? Any suggestions for my training? Am I too nice?
 
#24 ·
Thanks for the detailed posts and analysis. Glad to know that a white shepherd isn't normally, genetically dominant. I feel that it's very likely that my dog is taking advantage of me. During a training session on the Halti, the moment when I handed the leash to the trainer, my dog whipped his head around and was completely aware of who was holding the reigns. Trainer noticed the change in focus. It's been 2 months that we've been using a Halti; previously, it was harness (because we have ignorant laws here that forbids collars on dogs >45 pounds, citing painful to dog). I'm willing to risk the fine and start on a prong collar.

I bought a Herm Sprenger 2.5mm today and hopefully will get a lesson today on fitting it. I like Tyler Muto's video on introducing prong pressure I understand that if the prong excites the dog too much to redirecting on me, that I might need to move to a nylon slip collar. I will save any e-collar training for a much later date for off-leash proofing.

@David Winners: All my trainings have been private one-on-one sessions to address biting. /forum/images/Germanshepherds_2016/smilies/tango_face_sad.png Like Chip Blasiole said, it's really hard to find a GOOD trainer and hence why I'm going to see a 4th trainer today that is an hour drive away. I've been following a lot of Michael Ellis for the basic obedience and luring.

Did anyone watch the video put out by Ed Frawley on Leerburg "Dealing with Dominant and Aggressive Dogs"? He gives some insane (according to me) 7/10 corrections on prong. Is this normal?

This is us with out basic commands at age 7.5 months: Does anyone have comments? Any suggestions for my training? Am I too nice?
I personally wouldn't take dog training advice from Ed Frawley
 
#11 ·
I am going to go off topic for a moment. I would really stop all of that mileage where you are pounding the pavement in the city. On leash walking really isn't exercise for a dog and manmade surfaces are really hard on his joints as well as yours. Are there any natural trails that you can take him on? I would suggest far less time city walking and maybe spending more time at the park. If you go to the dog park, do NOT permit your dog to pull on another dog's neck. That can end up very badly for your dog if he were to do that to the wrong dog.

Are your training sessions 30 minutes straight or broken up throughout the day?

I don't see this dog needing much in way of corrections. He just needs better direction from you although the video shows he and you are doing quite nicely. Good trainers can be hard to come by in many areas. Sorry you don't seem to be having much luck finding one that works for the both of you.

ME is very good and it shows in your work. Let me also recommend an addition to your repertoire. I think this book can help you.

https://www.amazon.com/Purely-Positive-Training-Companion-Competition/dp/0966302001
 
#20 ·
City walking

I am going to go off topic for a moment. I would really stop all of that mileage where you are pounding the pavement in the city. On leash walking really isn't exercise for a dog and manmade surfaces are really hard on his joints as well as yours. Are there any natural trails that you can take him on? I would suggest far less time city walking and maybe spending more time at the park. If you go to the dog park, do NOT permit your dog to pull on another dog's neck. That can end up very badly for your dog if he were to do that to the wrong dog.

Are your training sessions 30 minutes straight or broken up throughout the day?
Yes, my training sessions are broken up into 5 sessions during the day.

Thanks for letting me know that 7.5 miles per day is too much. Unfortunately, I live central downtown and the nearest 2 dog parks are almost 2 miles away (i.e. 3.75 miles return trip). I will reduce the distance and try to get him walking on grass wherever possible on our walks.

How do you teach not to bite necks while playing? Other dog always comes running back for more play. Lately, as he's gotten bigger, I've been intervening and prying his teeth off the neck when he starts dragging a dog and pulling him away a little. The other dog always comes running back to continue playing. I'm vigilantly watching that nothing escalates to violence and I exit the park when there are dogs (mainly 3 unfixed males) that scare Tofu.

 
#13 ·
To me, an 8.5-month-old is still a puppy. I don’t expect much at 100% at this age. If I give a command and he doesn’t listen, chances are it is one of the following: He doesn’t truly understand, the command has not been generalized enough, or the distraction is just too high/I am expecting too much. I would either help him with a hand signal (if I taught him via luring)/reward heavily when he complies or take a step back in training/work on generalization/layer distractions at a slower pace.

Make training more fun for him, a puppy’s attention span can only be so long. I would focus more on building a fun-based relationship with your dog at this point, vs trying to get him to do everything at 100%.
 
#17 ·
I think I'm seeing it the way San is. He's not dominant or disobeying in any way. Because you're using hand signals along with the command, its confusing to him right now once you're giving them in a different position. He's dependent right now on seeing a clear and consistent signal from you. Chaining things together is adding to that and creating a little hesitancy. He's very compliant, I'd just spend more time doing one thing at a time until there's no hesitancy in him. Down in one short session, sit in another, and rather then call him in to heel position, I'd step into place while he's sitting attentive and build some focus for reward for right now. Later on its his responsibility to position himself correctly, but for right now I'd rather get reps rewarding correct without all the do overs to get it. Speed comes from motivation, teach him correct first, then build some drive and motivation to get speed.

I also like to make sure everything has a clear beginning and a clear end. I like to tell them "Ready" to begin and then "Done" to go ahead and just be a dog. Focus and attention are finite, so that helps put a little value on listening to you.

My guess would be the biting is also coming from confusion. Get something he likes to bite and work specifically and separate of anything else on outing it. Play a little calm tug, hold it as still as you can and tell him out. As soon as he lets go move it back and tell him to bite it again. Once they realize giving it to you (outing it) restarts everything, they'll generally be pretty reliable about it. Playing with rules and clear obedience in his mind will probably take care of the problems you're seeing. I really don't think any of this is as bad you may think, and I'm also pretty sure you're doing better then you think you are with him.
 
#14 · (Edited)
For your self described level of inexperience, the training looked pretty good for pet training. I don't see a shred of dominance. Regarding if you are too easy on your dog, I can't really answer that because I don't know your dog's level of handler hardness (how well he tolerates corrections without breaking down) or what amount of training he has had. Plus, I am use to training a different kind of dog. One thing to think about is to always raise the expectations as your dog better understands what you are asking of him and keep your expectations consistent. If you let the dog get away with little things, you are teaching him you don't expect that much out of him. As an example of how I would train differently (with a different type of dog) I would use opposition reflex (pulling the lease in the opposite direction, for example to get the dog into a static heel and would be more forceful. I am not suggesting you do that with your dog, but you could be a bit more assertive and active. It is kind of like if you are in a higher state of drive, the dog will be too. I just watched a little of the vid on the prong collar and don't use it at all like in the video, but I understand that is pet training with softer dogs. For me the correct use of the prong is to have no pressure on the collar, a very quick, sharp pop, and then no pressure. The idea is more to get the dog's attention, not to inflict pain or get into a power struggle. I noticed on the last down, you waited about four seconds and then the dog downed and you praised him. That explains the four second pause rather than dominance. You have actually taught your dog to wait four seconds and then down. You can use food to lure your dog into a quicker down if he has good food drive. The other choice is compulsion, but I would rebuild the foundation first. I also am a very big believer in a release command, such as "free" which means the dog can release from a particular behavior and get a reinforcer. For example, with a puppy, I do a lot of fast sits and release after each correct sit and reinforce then repeat. Then do the same with downs, heel, etc. As the dog becomes more proficient, then start to chain the behaviors together.
 
#15 ·
If that is you and the white dog in the video? I have a couple of simple suggestions. First of all correct your posture, no I am not crazy. You are leaning over the dog and have your head down. Square your shoulders and stop looking at the dog, it will make a difference in how the dog perceives your commands. Remember dogs read body language better then verbal cues. I also see the dog watching you intently and doing what he can to please you, trying to engage. Up the praise. Give him a reward, not food but praise. With young dogs I like to do 3-4 commands and then some really enthusiastic praise, maybe a minute of tug or a ball toss.
I don't see any dominance and I would suspect that his actions are attempts to get your attention, not anything else.
 
#16 ·
He’s not dominant, in fact in the video seems very tuned into you. He’s making eye contact, he’s watching you, he mostly does what you ask him to do. If you say Down and he ignores you, either do it again and make him comply or change it to a quick Sit to end with him following a command. If you give a command, follow through. He seems very calm and biddable. I wish my 4 yr old was as calm as yours is when training. I get crisper responses. If I give a command, he jumps to follow it, but mine is also very squirmy and excited, so I do a lot of capping (calming) to keep him out of drive mode (high intensity). I’m guessing you switched things up for the video, but if you are working on a command, do that same command more than once, then move in to the next thing. I only switch it up like you did when I’m sure he knows the commands and will do them crisply and quickly.
 
#18 ·
Thanks everyone for commenting and reviewing my video. My take from all:

1) truly dominant dogs are rare and no one wants a dominant dog. Hard, confident & willful - OK.
2) occasional outbursts of mouthing/biting in response to commands are normal for an 8.5 month puppy and is NOT dominance
3) make training fun, add assertiveness and energy into myself, stand tall & straight. To be honest, I've made myself boring during training because he gets out-of-control mouthy/jumping when stimulated and then I get frustrated and he gets frustrated and then he doesn't remember anything other than he WANTS my arm in his mouth... *sigh*
4) go back to building a stronger foundation OB. The video is what we do typically throughout our walks but I should do more repetitions of the same 1 command.
 
#19 ·
Just be yourself. You can't fake it and I don't see anything in your video that says you aren't naturally assertive enough for him. Teach him to play tug by your rules, it will create value for what you want him to bite and give you a way to make it clear not to put his teeth on you so if it does continue to be something he needs to be corrected for, you can make a clear distinction about whats appropriate and whats not. Ivan Balabanov's "The Game" is a great plan.
 
#29 ·
Thanks for pointing out the risk of a caught tooth.

What do you mean by "He's at an age..."? Is there a potential for character/personality change coming up in his developmental stage? Do playing with many different dogs have an impact? He has a rotation of about 10 dogs that he frequently plays with at the park depending on what time we go.
 
#22 ·
My Ex used to say in his very French Canadian way - "that's it, that's all". Had nothing to do with dogs, but when I'm working with mine or playing with mine or feeding and they are being piggies, I still use "That's it, that's all" when we're done with anything. We say "Ready" before playing ball with Daisy.

I liked what I saw mostly with the dog, and don't see dominance there either. He's still a puppy. He's happy and engaged, I think he's just not quite sure with what you want is all.

The White Shepherd may make him more tractable, but the Samoyed part...if he's 1/2 Samoyed that might make him a bit stubborn, too.

OP- Why are you heeling him on the right side? You have your leash in the correct hand but you're working him on the right. It's funny how some things just are, like heeling on the left, and mounting a horse on the left.

If I see a dog on the left side at heel, I assume usually correctly that the dog is doing/has done obedience work, owner knows what he/she's doing and has dog in control.

If on the right, on a harness or out in front, my dog and I are getting out of the way--turning back or crossing the street. They probably haven't done OB work and don't care if they pass me safely or not. I want no contact with other dogs.

Anything you've taught him on the right side, now has to be taught on the correct side.
 
#28 ·
OP- Why are you heeling him on the right side? You have your leash in the correct hand but you're working him on the right. It's funny how some things just are, like heeling on the left, and mounting a horse on the left.

Anything you've taught him on the right side, now has to be taught on the correct side.
I don't think that there's a "correct" side to heeling. I initially started his heel work on the right to place me between all the people on the street (society has been conditioned to walk on the righthand side of the sidewalk, up escalators/stairs, etc.). But he knows to heel on both my right and left sides (instead of saying "heel", my commands are "right" and "left"). I live downtown and prefer blocking him from going up to others or people from petting him without permission. Working the command on both sides means he's comfortable moving to my other side while walking when there's an oncoming dog/distraction.
 
#26 ·
But I agree about the collars. I have finally now had it happen. My lab got his jaw caught on my shepherd's collar. It was really really scary and bad and because I ran fast, have 2 good dogs, and was right there, I was able to prevent cstastrophe but it still almost started a dog fight and could have resulted in serious injury. Once you have seen this happen you'll never let a dog mouth play with a collar on again
 
#27 ·
I love Tofu! I doubt very seriously he is a dominant dog. Get into some sports with him, you'll both have a blast.

He probably had a really poor start in the first home and learned bad puppy habits he has carried into a big body. He probably was desperate for attention and proper structure and acting out.

I hope you get a good trainer because I think you have a really lovely dog there that you could do all sorts of fun stuff with. Don't label him like there is something wrong with him. Some pet trainers do nothing but suppress a dog and shut it down and never give it an outlet to be a tug. Watch the Ellis videos on tug and learn to play with him. It might make a big difference if he could use his mouth for reward and have a constructive thing to bite?

He probably just needs better manners, outlets, and maybe a correction that works to let him know you are not a chew toy. Good luck. Hope to hear more about Tofu.
 
#43 ·
Adora 155,
You can heel your dog on any side you want or both sides. It is only an issue if you are doing competition obedience that requires heeling on the left or right. I wouldn't concern myself with the neck biting, as that is how dogs play. They don't have hands. He looks like he plays very well with other dogs. Personally, I don't let my dog play with other dogs, but that is a personal choice for different reasons than you letting your dog play with other dogs. I would be concerned that you are sure any dog he plays with is not dog aggressive and that is not always easy to determine. A single learning event can occur if your dog happens to play with a dog and the dog becomes aggressive toward your dog leading to your dog becoming dog aggressive. I don't think dog parks are good places for dogs. The other thing about playing with other dogs is that you become less important to your dog because you really can't compete with another dog. It probably won't become an issue for you and what your goals are, but be sure the other dogs are not dog aggressive. Also, if your dog plays with more than one dog at a time, there is a greater chance of aggression because there is more competition.
 
#47 ·
When I suggested you do a lot of repetitions of a single behavior, reinforce, release, repeat, is because it takes a ton of repetitions and reinforcement to get reliable obedience. I would focus more on sits, downs and come and progress to having the dog hold the sits and downs gradually longer while you gradually increase the distance you are away from the dog while he is in a sit or down. I don't use a stay command. I will just use a sit or down command and the dog has to hold the command until he gets the release command. Progress to a sit or down, move a distance away and recall your dog. Then increase the length of time for the sit or down and the distance of the recall. Make sure you are either in a safe/enclosed area so the dog can't bolt and get hit by a car, or keep a long, light line on him like clothes line (I don't know if people still know what that is because not many people hang their clothes on clothe lines any more.)
 
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