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Question regarding “pet quality” vs “working quali

8K views 74 replies 27 participants last post by  Liesje 
#1 ·
This might not be the best place for this question but considering a lot of breeders probably hang out on this board I might get the best answers here.

Anyway, I was just given a price range for pet quality pups. Evidently first pick is considerably more $ and the price drops from that point. So my question is, do breeders generally breed for “pet quality” and basically every dog in the litter is considered “pet quality” with drive varying from pup to pup? Or do they generally breed for working and pick out the ones that don’t seem to have the drive that might make a great working dog and call them “pet quality”? How does all that work?

Also say a breeder is breeding pet quality dogs or they tell you this particular pup is pet quality isn’t there still some chance the dog could end up being a good worker?

Or say both parents are working line but not titled and don’t have a strong line of workers couldn’t the pups still end up being great workers? I mean genetics are a funny thing and even the best breeders can produce a dog with health issues…it would seem that would work both ways?

I hope that question makes some sense…not sure I really explained it very well.
 
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#2 ·
A responsible working line breeder will breed for working abilities, but not all pups in a litter will have the drive they need for working situations thus they sell them as pet quality.

Some times pups don't show all their drives until they are older so yes, there is a chance that you get a pet quality dog and down the line once the dog starts to mature, he can become a good working prospect.
 
#3 ·
Originally Posted By: Brandon C So my question is, do breeders generally breed for “pet quality” and basically every dog in the litter is considered “pet quality” with drive varying from pup to pup?

Some breeders do breed for all "pet quality" type animals. IMO, that is not correct GSD breeding and not what the good GSD breeders do. This is a working breed after all. Litters bred for working ability will produce some pups that don't live up to expectations and make the cut in terms of working ability, and those pups make fine pets.

There is no reason to breed specifically for all pets. And the breeding of such begs the question of this:
If working to working (or show to show) produces some pups that fit the expectations and some that fall short of those expectations, and are lesser dogs in those regards than their parents, what happens in pet breeding? If the goal is pets and nothing but pets, and the parents are nothing but pets, and thus the best pups in the litter are pets.... what are the pups who fall short of that suitable for?

Originally Posted By: Brandon C
Or do they generally breed for working and pick out the ones that don’t seem to have the drive that might make a great working dog and call them “pet quality”? How does all that work?
Depends on the goals of the breeder.

Unfortunately, there are FAR more breeders out there breeding pet variety GSDs than any other. Show line breeders would come in a distant second. Those breeding to maintain working ability are in the tiny minority of GSD breeders.

A pet quality pup from show breeders is going to be the one who's structure, size, color, etc... makes it ill suited for doing well in the show ring. Show breeders typically draw the line between show quality and pet quality based on physical appearance, since that is their priority for breeding.

A pet quality pup from working breeders is going to be one that doesn't have the drive, hardness, aggression, dominance, etc... to excel in work/sport. Working breeders typically draw the line between working quality and pet quality based on those temperament traits, since that is their priority for breeding.

As for pet breeders, well, supposedly they're all pet quality and nothing more.

Originally Posted By: Brandon C
Also say a breeder is breeding pet quality dogs or they tell you this particular pup is pet quality isn’t there still some chance the dog could end up being a good worker?
Yes it can happen. But it depends on the bloodlines and goals of the breeding program. A pet quality pup from working lines and a breeding program bred for work is far more likely to turn out to be a good worker than is a pet quality pup from generations of pet lines and a breeding program designed to produce pets.

Reason being, the types of personality traits pet breeders breed for, and thus run strongly in the bloodlines, are pretty much the opposite of working breeders. They are breeding for a low drive, soft, laid back, submissive type temperament. Generations of that sort of breeding is far less likely to produce a high drive, hard, intense dog. It happens, but it's rare.

Originally Posted By: Brandon C
Or say both parents are working line but not titled and don’t have a strong line of workers couldn’t the pups still end up being great workers? I mean genetics are a funny thing and even the best breeders can produce a dog with health issues…it would seem that would work both ways?
Again, yes it can happen. Is it common? No.

Genetics are not completely predictable. That is true. Sometimes there are suprises. But you're still more likely to get good show dogs from the breeding of good show dogs and good working dogs from the breeding of good working dogs and healthy dogs from the breeding of healthy dogs.
 
#5 ·
And another thing to add that I have a problem with, especially in this scenario, is charging for pick of the litter.

There is no such thing with my puppies. Each pup is a pick puppy depending on the qualities the owner is looking for. Each one is unique and matched to that persons needs so that each one is a pick. Charging more for a pick versus a pet is ridiculous is my book.

Now there can be "pick" for showlines for those that show all the characteristics of a top show prospect, but I don't agree with that for most puppies.
 
#6 ·
Originally Posted By: Angela_WAnd another thing to add that I have a problem with, especially in this scenario, is charging for pick of the litter.

There is no such thing with my puppies. Each pup is a pick puppy depending on the qualities the owner is looking for. Each one is unique and matched to that persons needs so that each one is a pick. Charging more for a pick versus a pet is ridiculous is my book.

Now there can be "pick" for showlines for those that show all the characteristics of a top show prospect, but I don't agree with that for most puppies.
Agree 100%.
 
#7 ·
Originally Posted By: Angela_W
There is no such thing with my puppies. Each pup is a pick puppy depending on the qualities the owner is looking for. Each one is unique and matched to that persons needs so that each one is a pick. Charging more for a pick versus a pet is ridiculous is my book.
Very well said, I too agree 100%.
 
#8 ·
Originally Posted By: Angela_WAnd another thing to add that I have a problem with, especially in this scenario, is charging for pick of the litter.

There is no such thing with my puppies. Each pup is a pick puppy depending on the qualities the owner is looking for. Each one is unique and matched to that persons needs so that each one is a pick. Charging more for a pick versus a pet is ridiculous is my book.

Now there can be "pick" for showlines for those that show all the characteristics of a top show prospect, but I don't agree with that for most puppies.
I think this is very respectable, at least from me being a buyer. I think that "pick", show vs. pet, full vs. limited reg should not affect price. The only things I think should affect price are faults or physical problems with the dog (for example, a long coat, an undescended testicle, a health problem). One of Nikon's siblings had a heart problem and sadly died young. She was "adopted" by a caring family, obviously they should not have paid what I paid for Nikon because the dog had a health problem. This could have been the "pick" dog, fully registered and no other disqualifying faults. Personally I think those things should have more to do with the relationship between the breeder and the buyer and how the breeder matches puppies, not the price of the dog. Now say one parent is younger and not fully titled, that is fine but then the price of ALL the dogs is lowered.
 
#9 ·
IMHO and experience, albeit somewhat lacking compared to breeders that actually raise a good number of their own dogs to maturity, the most important thing to remember is something along the lines that everyone's said thus far, including you. There's no way you're going to know what you really have until the pup matures.

While you also did not specify, presumably to get unbiased oinions, I like to think about what KIND of work. I mean, a guide dog or therapy dog is a working dog, but IMHO requires nowhere near the drive that a police K9 does. Similarly, like you suspect already, even a dog that displays outward calm does not necessarily mean that he won't make a good K9, in fact, he might actually be a better candidate because of it, does that make sense?

If it does not, then please excuse me for butting in.
 
#10 ·
Re: Question regarding “pet quality” vs “working q

Originally Posted By: LiesjeThe only things I think should affect price are faults or physical problems with the dog (for example, a long coat, an undescended testicle, a health problem).

And that's the only way that I might have one lower in cost. I had one pup in the G litter that had 1 testicle at 8 wks, reduced him to help cover the cost of the neuter as I know it cost more. It might come down, might not but it wasn't there at 8wks which is what I go of. One in the H litter had a kink in it's tail at the tip, not sure if mom stepped on him or what. Def. physical defect so you adjust for that.
 
#13 ·
Re: Question regarding “pet quality” vs “working q

Originally Posted By: GSDBESTK9I did pay full price for a pup with an undescended testicle, HOWEVER, the breeder did pay for the surgery to have that testicle removed. So there is different scenarios, I guess depends on the situation?
That would work for me too. IMO, that is probably even better as it very well could have cost more to do the surgey, than you would have had taken off of the price had you gotten a discount on the pup.
 
#14 ·
Re: Question regarding “pet quality” vs “working q

Originally Posted By: GSDBESTK9Some times pups don't show all their drives until they are older so yes, there is a chance that you get a pet quality dog and down the line once the dog starts to mature, he can become a good working prospect.
And yes that's def. possible. I have 2 pups from the I litter, Imre and Igor. Imre's owners decided after about a month to see how he would do with schutzhund. Not a high sch. prospect at 8 wks, 12 wks more and more started to show. Owners aren't sure if they can continue due to work schedules, but he has the capability to do it.

Another, Igor, his owner emailed me yesterday. When she got him, she had no idea about schutzhund, no interest in working him. Well guess she decided to have him tested (now 7 months old). Trainer told him he was a natural like his dad. (come to find, I've trialed with the trainer before and she has seen Hardy work).

So some that are just pets an companions can sometimes due schutzhund even if that wasn't the original intention.
 
#15 ·
Re: Question regarding “pet quality” vs “working q

Quote:So some that are just pets an companions can sometimes due schutzhund even if that wasn't the original intention.
I totally agree. That's the beauty of the GSD breed as a whole. A single dog can be well-rounded enough to be a family pet, loyal companion, compete in sports and be a protection dog, all rolled into one. Even better is the fact that they can have the disposition to actually enjoy all of these very different things. What other breed is like that?
 
#16 ·
Re: Question regarding “pet quality” vs “working q

Puppies are nothing but promise and potential - not addressing showline breeders here BTW as their criteria for choosing "pick" or "shos" vs "pet" are using different priorities!!!

For me, all pups are initally the same price - a coat or pup with a missing testicle will be deemed "pet" price - not saying that pup cannot work - just that he has a breeding "fault" that would keep him from passing a breed survey. Pups I have put in "pet" homes have gone on to be Schh3 (Apache v Wolfstraum aka Cody, 6x Schh3 I think, including the National HOT - sold as a pet!) - and others who were very nice working prospects end up somewhere like Zambia LOL LOL so won't get titled after all! So all my pups need to be able to function as family companion puppies with the potential to work if the buyer so desires.

Lee
 
#17 ·
Re: Question regarding “pet quality” vs “working q

My "pet" puppy does schutzhund no problem and I am teased about him being a "pet". Something his breeder said to me the day I got him is still with me to this day, "this puppy will do whatever you want him to do". I just didn't know it was going to be schutzhund! And shutzhund he does with glowing reviews!

Like Lee mentioned, it was not his working ability that made him "pet" quality and thus a cheaper price (which was not my reasoning for a pet, btw). He was small, plain and simple. He was the smallest pup in the litter by quite a bit and his breeder, although aware that puppies do change so much (he is now one of the, if not the, largest dog out of his litter), wasn't going to charge someone full price for a dog that, at the moment, may not have matured into a dog that could pass the breed survey. IMO, the total GSD is correct in both structure and temperament so some fault in one of those=pet quality.

You really have to talk with these breeders to understand where they are coming from. You can't judge a breeder by a website and you can't judge a breeder from a message board.
 
#18 ·
Re: Question regarding “pet quality” vs “working q



When I sold this pup to the buyer, who intended to use him for work, I explained that this was probably the pup with the least potential of the entire litter. But, being the only male of the litter, the buyer was not dissuaded, and took his puppy happily. Just having returned from formal training with Ivan Balabinov, an accomplished trainer, he was told "this dog can do anything you want it to." So really, it can greatly depend on the owner's commitment and the quality of training provided.

I too, dislike the term "pick" of the litter, and sell all my dogs for the same price, to the buyer's appropriate needs. They can disagree with my recommendations (I usually offer a few optional puppies), and select which ever pup they wish in the order that the deposits have been made. The only time I'm willing sell a pup for less than the original price, is like in the case of an undescended testicle, where it's future potential is limited. Any pup can receive full breeding rights (without paying more), provided the hips are fair, and it's working-certified. And they're ALL quality pets!
 
#19 ·
Re: Question regarding “pet quality” vs “working q

Originally Posted By: jesusicaLike Lee mentioned, it was not his working ability that made him "pet" quality and thus a cheaper price (which was not my reasoning for a pet, btw). He was small, plain and simple. He was the smallest pup in the litter by quite a bit and his breeder, although aware that puppies do change so much (he is now one of the, if not the, largest dog out of his litter), wasn't going to charge someone full price for a dog that, at the moment, may not have matured into a dog that could pass the breed survey. IMO, the total GSD is correct in both structure and temperament so some fault in one of those=pet quality.
Thank you Jessica, I couldn't have said it better. For us, its not only to strive for top working ability but also correct structure, since both determine the breed quality of a dog. Do all puppies in all litters meet this? Of course not, and those that don't from what we can tell at that moment, are not sold as such. Flash is a great dog. He may have well been "the fish that got away" but neither Dean nor I have any regrets. Jessica fiercely loves that dog and even if she decided to stop training tomorrow, I couldn't be more elated in home she has made for Flash.
 
#20 ·
Re: Question regarding “pet quality” vs “working q

Originally Posted By: DarylEhretThe only time I'm willing sell a pup for less than the original price, is like in the case of an undescended testicle, where it's future potential is limited. Any pup can receive full breeding rights (without paying more), provided the hips are fair, and it's working-certified. And they're ALL quality pets!
I noticed that your contract distinguishes between working quality and family companion as far as ranking - how do you distinguish between the two?
 
#21 ·
Re: Question regarding “pet quality” vs “working q

We do not do pick of the litter order. I do not like that term, as it sounds that 1 puppy is the best and the rest are......

I do know that some breeders do place, based on who sent in a deposit 1st. We do not do that.

We placed based on what the prospective new owner is looking for, what their experience level is, what their support system is (training director, helper, group, etc) and match it with the puppy. Gabor has done all of his HOT dogs from a puppy that he picked (so he looks for what he would want in a SCH dog) and he will turn down placing a dog with someone if we feel it is not the right fit. We just did that this past week.

You really have to delve into what the person is asking and what they are telling you and what they are NOT telling you. As with everything, you learn from previous mistakes and are determined not to repeat them.

We will occasionally place a puppy with a new owner to the sport that has an excellent support system and shows very strong intent. Just in the last few months, I got some great and very positive feedback from Bill Kulla (when we saw he and Jen at the WUSV) and Greg Doud on Eriel from our E litter. Both has seen her at seminars they had given; her owner is working with us and taking it slow and steady, as Eriel is pushing very hard to work.
 
#22 ·
Originally Posted By: Chris WildSome breeders do breed for all "pet quality" type animals. IMO, that is not correct GSD breeding and not what the good GSD breeders do. This is a working breed after all. Litters bred for working ability will produce some pups that don't live up to expectations and make the cut in terms of working ability, and those pups make fine pets.
This has been a very eductional thread. I do not know hardly anything about breeding.

This quote from Chris makes 100% sense to me. Never put it quite in my head that way.

When people get GSD, JRT, and other similar high drive breeds for that manner they complain or give them up. When they have just been breed to do what they are suppose to do.

My GSD is not (he is from a rescue), but my JRT is very high drive. This is always in my mind, he is what they are suppose to be, he was bred right, but ended up in a shelter anyway, but that is beside the point.

Again education brings understanding of these dogs.

Thanks OP for these questions. And all these very informative responses.
 
#23 ·
Originally Posted By: Daisy1986

When people get GSD, JRT, and other similar high drive breeds for that manner they complain or give them up. When they have just been breed to do what they are suppose to do.
The problem is, many people want the look and reputation of a particular breed, but don't want or can't handle the temperament appropriate for that breed.

That is why there are so many of the "pet" breeders, producing watered down versions of GSDs that look like GSDs but act more like Golden Retrievers. There is a huge market for such dogs, and as long as people will buy them, breeders will produce them.

I think it preferrable for everyone involved, and the breed as a whole, to educate people on what any given breed is supposed to be like and when appropriate steer them toward another breed altogether if another breed is a better fit for their personality and lifestyle. Unfortunately, in the real world that doesn't often work and many people aren't willing to be educated or are bent on getting a particular breed because they love it's looks or whatever other reason, whether it's temperament is a good fit for them or not.
 
#24 ·
Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
The problem is, many people want the look and reputation of a particular breed, but don't want or can't handle the temperament appropriate for that breed.

That is why there are so many of the "pet" breeders, producing watered down versions of GSDs that look like GSDs but act more like Golden Retrievers. There is a huge market for such dogs, and as long as people will buy them, breeders will produce them.

I think it preferrable for everyone involved, and the breed as a whole, to educate people on what any given breed is supposed to be like and when appropriate steer them toward another breed altogether if another breed is a better fit for their personality and lifestyle. Unfortunately, in the real world that doesn't often work and many people aren't willing to be educated or are bent on getting a particular breed because they love it's looks or whatever other reason, whether it's temperament is a good fit for them or not.
 
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