German Shepherds Forum banner

How about those Breeder, Breeding threads.

27K views 203 replies 36 participants last post by  selzer 
#1 ·
To me they are often counter productive.

Accepted breeders and practices go something like this:

Hobby Breeder.
Titles potential breeding stock themselves.
Breeding stock and lineage should be titled.
All should be health tested. Hips and elbows and other health test such as for DM.
Working line preferred.
A few litters a yea.r
This is a short general version of the more acceptable forum dog and breeder.

The problem is there are not that many breeders like this and not everyone is interested in these things anyway.

Among the general population most don't know or care what IPO is.

When they come on here the quickly learn that their dogs suck because they don't fit the criteria and worse they may have even purchased from a BYB.

Often then they disappear to not be heard from again.

There must be a better way than insisting there is only one kind of breeder and one kind of dog that is acceptable.

On another note. There is no breeder bashing allowed. So the solution to that is for someone to announce that they have PM'd someone. Which is board speak for "your breeder stinks".

Has to be a better way. This way it is not very welcoming or understanding of about 90 percent of the GSD owning population. IMO.
 
See less See more
#134 ·
Read the post that started it all...if you haven't actually had experience with the dogs, what is your opinion worth? And many times, we'll have others come on and start adding "do you know who you're talking with?!?! They know EVERYTHING!!"

The people that ask the breeder questions are many times newbies, it's very rare that someone involved in IPO at a decent level actually asks about a pedigree or a breeder. They have people they know in real life that they trust to give them the right information...they also usually know a lot more than your average owner and have some idea of what they're looking for. To the newbies...having 3 or 4 people question the breeder's decision is many times 3 or 4 people too many, and it's just not fair.

I'm also not talking about the clear BYB or mass production line breeders. I'm talking about when we start to question off-board breeders that are clearly doing something right and yet it's still not good enough for certain people.

If you do follow those threads...the best is when that breeder gets wind of it, makes an account, and defends their breeding. For some reason, all the "doubters" tuck tail and run...they get quiet really quickly. It's really funny how much braver people are when they don't actually have to stand up to the person they're questioning.
 
#133 ·
Compared to the wide, wide world, there are very FEW breeders on this board. Even before people stopped posting there were only a handful. Everyone needs to find their own criteria for finding a breeder. What I look for in a breeder for ethics isn't going to be what others look for.
 
#135 ·
Just read through this and have some thoughts....

First off - we ALL love German Shepherd Dogs. Period. We loved the breed before we got it...for the image and reputation of intelligence, versatility, noble demeanor, loyalty and of course, it's stunning appearance - medium large, alert expression, and those ears - yes, those ears...the wolf like look!

The Standard: The name of the breed is the GERMAN Shepherd Dog. GERMAN. Thus, my personal preference for dogs bred to the SV standard. Given the reality of our challenges in the US due to the size and scarcity of IPO club opportunities, I agree that SOME measure of latitude has to be made in adhering to the criteria of the SV for breeding. But, I also feel that, through experience, and experience takes TIME, breeders can still have a program that is acceptable. The IPO test was developed to test breeding stock. Along with the HGH, this test will challenge the dog and handler to show the character that the breed standard describes. A breeder who has generations of dogs which he has trained and bred will have more insight into the dog's character, ability and where traits come from. How to preserve desirable qualities. How to breed out undesirable.

The phrase I hate is "breeding to improve the BREED". Think about that. There is a standard, to improve the breed, you must exceed that standard. Therefore, I believe that breeding should strive to MEET the standard.

There is a school of thought that pedigree does not matter. That looking at two dogs will tell you what you get. If it were that easy, then breeding two dogs who were highly placed at the Nationals/Worlds would give you dogs that you could take to the same level. That breeding the male and female winners of the BSZS (German Nationals - ie, Sieger Show) would produce pups that would then place 1st at the National Championship. That breeding the mare who won the Kentucky Oaks to the colt who won the Kentucky Derby would produce a winner of one of those races. Well, it does NOT work that way. Pedigree is the foundation of every animal breeding endeavor. Studying pedigrees, learning what dog was preponent for what qualities and what dogs did not pass on their genetics is important when you try to meet that standard. That knowledge takes years to acquire, and is a never ending learning experience.
People who breed generations of dogs, who experience training not just their lines, but are watching dogs of other lines/pedigrees train, tend to learn what works together, what comes from where - good and bad.....
And there is a vast difference in just buying titled dogs, sending dogs to Europe to get titles, and breeding without that training experience. Living with the dogs can tell you things as well. But many big volume breeders just buy dogs, keep them in kennels and breed them. Their interaction is at feeding time and maybe some exercise or play time if the dog is lucky and they even do this themselves. Sharing breeding females who then get the opportunity to live in a home, part of a family, even watching them train, is an alternative.
Yes, I have expressed a negative opinion because of my own moral convictions as well. Having had 2 dogs who were kennel raised that then turned into house dogs when I acquired them, I see the personality and the desires of the dog. I don't like, actually I abhor, kenneling dogs. Keeping 5 - 10 -- 15 breeding dogs in kennels and making a living off those puppies - no matter if the dogs are high quality imports or BYB puppy mill dogs in nice kennels or in piecemeal cages - is something that does nothing but elicit anger and pity from me. Sorry - dogs are meant to be companion animals, and no matter how well you care for caged dogs, you are denying them their primary purpose by this. I feel so sorry for those females. I think of the love and gratitude of my Alice and Basha....both of whom firmly planted themselves in the house, and hated being put out for even an hour in a kennel run. Their heads would hang, their tails droop and they would stand and not move towards a kennel run. Basha would much rather be in a crate in the living room than outside in a run.



Everyone has different tolerances, everyone likes something different. I don't speak for others, only myself.


Lee
 
#136 ·
Martemchik: yeah but, so what? Breeders are on a sliding scale - from the ones who let their intact females roam to the ones who are very serious about their particular lines. And I don't know why this upsets you. If someone asks what another's opinion is, then they should be open to whatever answer they receive.
 
#137 ·
But people do not want honesty and opinions much of the time. They want validation of their own opinion, reassurance that they are choosing correctly.

Lee
 
#140 · (Edited)
I have no problems with people who prefer and expect something different from their breeders. There are many different ways of thinking when it comes to breeding, and I'd venture to say that there is nothing that is 100% perfect.

That said, what I do take issue with, are highly critical accusations from people who know absolutely nothing at all about the people they are defaming. They look at a website and build an opinion about it, without ever actually visiting the facility or even TALKING to the breeder, and suddenly they know what's up and throw out extremely bold claims. Which frankly, is wrong.

We've all done it- I've done it. Look at a website and make an assumption. But to publicly go forward and continue to lampoon people we know nothing about doesn't make much sense. Especially when the things being said quite simply aren't true.

A breeder with a lot of dogs and a lot of litters on their webpage automatically gets labeled a puppy mill, with miserable dogs that waste away in kennels all day long. Sounds great as a pity pull, but dig a little deeper and actually know the operation behind the website, and realize that the large majority of dogs listed don't even live at the kennel, are part of a vast co-ownership network that work under the supervision of the breeder while IN loving homes, and only come back to the kennel to be assessed and bred, then return to their homes. But we can't glean that from a website, so instead we make baseless accusations, they must be miserable kennel dogs pumping out merchandise for a miller. No other possible scenario.
 
#141 ·
Lala, what if I told you that your hair should be black and your livingroom should be painted a deep peacock blue? And you should eat one meal a day that's strictly dark chocolate? Ok, I can see lots of people being on board for that last one. :D But you know what I mean: it's all personal, subjective opinion.
 
#142 ·
I'm talking about our need to be liked and approved. Subjective it might be in small things but we have same moral values and stuff. And we are constantly looking for approval, consciously or unconsciously. No one is bragging about abusing their dogs, for example. On the contrary, people go out of their way to list the things they do for their dogs.

I'm really far on that scale. I go outside looking like a bum everyday, do what I want and don't let people boss me around. I go against others on principle, just not to follow sometimes. So I'm actually one of those that people say don't care. But still I catch myself caring and I hate it.

My hair is black naturally))))) and I eat nothing but chocolate for days at a time. But I get your point.
 
#144 ·
I was trying to relate it more to what the OP was. Why do we shoot down any breeder that doesn’t do it exactly perfect like some of the ones on this forum *claim* to do? Or someone you know, or even the breeder you went to. It makes no sense. If you scare a “newbie” and give them even an ounce of doubt about where they got their dog from, or where they might get their dog from, it’s counterproductive. It also makes people defensive, then they leave.

Many times, the opinions sound like guarantees. Especially when others help out and lend credibility to people stating those opinions that shouldn’t have that much credibility in the first place (to the OP). At the end of the day, we're all internet strangers, no one really knows anyone's real resume. And whenever someone starts talking about their own accomplishments...it's usually inflated.

The fact is, even with the broad spectrum of breeders…many of us can agree on what’s good and bad. It’s the ones that fall somewhere in between (but closer to good) that always confuse me. You’ll have people calling them out for things on their website, or in the pedigree, when they’ll give other breeders a break over the same stuff just because they “know them.” It happens a lot when it comes to titles…anyone random “ALL DOGS SHOULD BE IPO3!” anyone on this board…well, they know what they’re doing, they’ve produced a lot of successful dogs (that we’ve never met), so they can breed an untitled dog.
 
#147 ·
Food for thought that fits well with what martemchik and, I believe, Jack's dad are trying to say. This is directed at breeders but the general message is very good.

Does the Purebred Dog World Have a Death Wish?


I was trying to relate it more to what the OP was. Why do we shoot down any breeder that doesn’t do it exactly perfect like some of the ones on this forum *claim* to do? Or someone you know, or even the breeder you went to. It makes no sense. If you scare a “newbie” and give them even an ounce of doubt about where they got their dog from, or where they might get their dog from, it’s counterproductive. It also makes people defensive, then they leave.


The fact is, even with the broad spectrum of breeders…many of us can agree on what’s good and bad. It’s the ones that fall somewhere in between (but closer to good) that always confuse me. You’ll have people calling them out for things on their website, or in the pedigree, when they’ll give other breeders a break over the same stuff just because they “know them.” It happens a lot when it comes to titles…anyone random “ALL DOGS SHOULD BE IPO3!” anyone on this board…well, they know what they’re doing, they’ve produced a lot of successful dogs (that we’ve never met), so they can breed an untitled dog.
 
#148 ·
Carmen and Blitzkreig, thank you for validating my post. Some members on this site are opinionated, unwelcoming and rude, sadly they seem to be the only ones allowed to be heard. You do not want to educate or share. This is like a cult. My way or the highway. If we keep saying it you will believe.

So I will say it again and maybe this time someone will notice. I came to this site for support and friendship. I thought the site was ' a German Shepherd website and forum. This site is dedicated to all aspects of the German Shepherd Dog. The German Shepherd Dog is respected and admired throughout the world for its versatility, intelligence, and loyalty. This is their home.'



Carmen, did you not like me disagreeing with you so you talked about something unrelated?

Blitzkreig, that was a juvenile response. I have stated repeatedly that I have grave concerns about health and do not support discriminate breeding

I fail to see the logic in insulting and demeaning people as an educational tool. One would think that people who care about the breed and are knowledgeable about certain aspects, would want to share.
 
#149 ·
this is the purpose of a web site "They look at a website and build an opinion about it,"

oh boy , this makes it worse , not better "A breeder with a lot of dogs and a lot of litters on their webpage automatically gets labeled a puppy mill, with miserable dogs that waste away in kennels all day long. Sounds great as a pity pull, but dig a little deeper and actually know the operation behind the website, and realize that the large majority of dogs listed don't even live at the kennel, are part of a vast co-ownership network that work under the supervision of the breeder while IN loving homes, and only come back to the kennel to be assessed and bred, then return to their homes."

sounds like a puppy farmer . Plant , feed, then harvest the bounty .
Knew one of those ! Almost every pup went out with some conditions requiring breeding. Franchise?

The "breeder" knows even less about the female then .
Not even do they not work them they don't even experience them at all .
 
#152 ·
Agreed Carmen....there was a guy 10 - 20 years ago who was the MASTER groundbreaker of this!!!! When the sport got a bit bigger, and the internet started giving people more options, he pretty much phased out breeding GSDs...or maybe he made enough money and just plain old retired....does not matter why, just random thoughts - he did well for years selling puppies.

I can think of at least SIX - 6 - breeders in a heartbeat that produce high volumes of litters with dogs they buy titled and or just plain broker....WGSL, WL even mixes of both....not picking on ONE or someone's choice....frankly, I could care less to talk to someone who breeds high volume for nice looking pets, as can be easily ascertained by the pedigrees of dogs being used, and whose kennel name RARELY show up in working homes or titled, (follow trial results in USCA, DVG and WDA publications both in print and online)...just because someone buys a puppy does not mean that breeder is the best in the country...they like their puppy - great, they are loyal to the breeder - also nice...but it does not change any of the numbers or facts.

Lee
 
#150 ·
I do feel this board can be very very hard on new people who come here with an interest in breeding. Funny thing is that most often it is not breeders that are the attackers, but non breeders. Yes, it can be frustrating when a new person comes here for validation to breed fluffy at 1 year of age with no health testing, but many others come here looking for knowledge. Attacking them does nothing, but chase them away. As the saying goes, "you can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar".

As far as the "do you know this breeder" threads. I am developing a huge love/hate relationship with those topics. We, a generalized "we", want to be able to direct people away from the worst, but often we slaughter other breeders just because they do not conform to "our" standards. Flinging around words like "puppy mill" or "BYB" is very elitist and does nothing except divide all breeders (see link above) or is used to make "us" look better or maybe more enlightened.

I know that I am extremely picky about who I would buy a pup from. There are many breeders that people recommend whose dogs I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, but my standards are not others' standards.

BTW, of all of the active ADMIN and mods on this board only 3 of us are breeders. Chris and I breed working lines and Daphne breeds ASL (and has now done some crosses). Lies owns a SL stud dog. David has worked most of his life with working dogs , but doesn't breed. Renee (ladylaw) is a k-9 handler (also finds dogs for other dept) and has bred a little, but doesn't post often. I am probably the only one who does IPO predominately while the other 3 who do IPO do many other activities. We are a pretty diverse group. Rescue folk, agility people, SAR handlers, service dog handler, strictly pet owners (though we are all pet owners), etc. :)
 
#155 ·
I do feel this board can be very very hard on new people who come here with an interest in breeding. Funny thing is that most often it is not breeders that are the attackers, but non breeders. Yes, it can be frustrating when a new person comes here for validation to breed fluffy at 1 year of age with no health testing, but many others come here looking for knowledge. Attacking them does nothing, but chase them away. As the saying goes, "you can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar".

As far as the "do you know this breeder" threads. I am developing a huge love/hate relationship with those topics. We, a generalized "we", want to be able to direct people away from the worst, but often we slaughter other breeders just because they do not conform to "our" standards. Flinging around words like "puppy mill" or "BYB" is very elitist and does nothing except divide all breeders (see link above) or is used to make "us" look better or maybe more enlightened.

I know that I am extremely picky about who I would buy a pup from. There are many breeders that people recommend whose dogs I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, but my standards are not others' standards

BTW, of all of the active ADMIN and mods on this board only 3 of us are breeders. Chris and I breed working lines and Daphne breeds ASL (and has now done some crosses). Lies owns a SL stud dog. David has worked most of his life with working dogs , but doesn't breed. Renee (ladylaw) is a k-9 handler (also finds dogs for other dept) and has bred a little, but doesn't post often. I am probably the only one who does IPO predominately while the other 3 who do IPO do many other activities. We are a pretty diverse group. Rescue folk, agility people, SAR handlers, service dog handler, strictly pet owners (though we are all pet owners), etc. :)
This is where I was going.

It seems that when these topics come up there is a stock forum answer.
Like a slot machine that just keeps landing on the same numbers even though there may be thousands of possible combinations.

The thread was not intended to be about "forum breeders" but the responses to questions about breeders and who is good and who is not.

Some talked about the "standard". I think most of us agree about the need for a GSD standard but it's various incarnations are subject to interpretation.

It's kind of like the bible. Some interpret it literally, others more liberally and some don't believe in it at all.
I have a feeling my view of the standard is different than Blitz's.
I think Blitz believes a real GSD should be able to rip the door off of a moving vehicle.

My GSD has solid nerve, appropriate aggression, is healthy and does not terrorize the neighborhood but I don't much care how hard they can clamp down on a sleeve.

To RobK. I am not anti IPO at all. I just don't agree that it alone is a good judge of whether a dog will produce after itself.

Race horses are a good example. Champions are fairly well known for not necessarily producing well. The mares I have read are as important or even more so than the champion stud.
 
#151 · (Edited)
Except that the part where the breeder keeps close supervision over the dog is completely omitted from that explanation.

Well gee, I know this breeder who does that. Isn't big into IPO, but does have a trainer they work closely with AT their own kennel, who works and asses these dogs in IPO, and who enjoys their own dogs and has spent a lot of time working them in things they enjoy better like herding, nose work, tracking, etc. Most go to active pet homes, some to working, some that are active SAR and K9s. And then sometimes they have one they like enough to keep back, and when they do, they offer them to people who are close and willing to work under their guidance, so that when the pup is of age they can come back to the kennel and be assessed. If the dog doesn't work out, they are altered and remain lovely family pets. If they do, they are bred, and also remain beloved family pets.

I get that people don't like people who don't keep their hands on their dogs 100% of the time- I DO, believe me, and I would agree someone who HOTs their dogs is probably going to know that dog a lot better than anyone else. BUT... big but... because someone does buy titled dogs, or has their dog titled by someone else, does co-owns dogs, does NOT make them a puppy mill or a bad breeder. At least not, ahem, in my opinion.
 
#158 · (Edited)
I want to add about ipo as learning about your dog. I haven't done it but from dabbling in training I believe this to be true.

Problem is that you also need the presence of mind and whatever else to be able to be honest about your dogs and then be able to decide not to breed some of them after you titled them to ipo3 and spent I don't know, years?

I don't know if people can do that. I don't know if I would be able to. I think once the dog is titled it's hard to do and much easier to use the title as a breeding right.

Also, you love your dogs and you look at them with rose glasses. And then you have outsiders confirming he's amazing (by giving you titles)

Do people really wash dogs out of breeding after all that because their nerves aren't as good or they're too aggressive or they're not as biddable?

Or once you have 3 then the dog is solid?
 
#159 ·
Serious question.

How long would it take to develop a your own "line" if you wish to become a reputable hobby breeder? Someone who personally titles all their own dogs and desires to produce a couple or several litters a year.

You can't be reputable when you start so when would one arrive.

Seems to me like a long time especially if a couple of potential dogs wash out. If so what happens to all the puppies before a breeder is reputable?
 
#160 ·
As far as setting a type and developing a "line", I'd say at least 3 generations/breedings in. When I think about breeding my own dog and the type I'd want to "set" in the line, I have thought 3 generations into the future before I would expect the result.

I won't get into the "reputable" aspect :p
 
#164 ·
To quickly answer the IPO3 question…

From what I’ve seen, if a dog is at IPO3, it’s proven to have “enough” nerve. That’s where it gets subjective though, someone might think it’s good enough, others might not, it’s then up to the customer to be able to go see the dog work and figure out for themselves if they want a puppy out of that kind of dog.

If the dog is lacking in somethings, you can still breed it. There are no perfect dogs. What you then try to do is match it to a mate that has what the first dog is lacking in. That way, the puppies have a chance to have the best of both dogs.

What you should understand is that as a stud dog owner you’re competing against all the other studs out there to try and get a female owner’s attention. If you own the male…you can always say no if you think the breeding will be poor or won’t match correctly, but at the end of the day, you do tend to trust the female’s owner/kennel that they’ve thought this through and have asked you for a stud service.

The progeny your dog produces follows you around FOREVER. So…if you bred a subpar dog, that produces subpar puppies 10 years ago. People (in the know, more likely regionally) will remember. They’ll remember when you bred a dog that probably shouldn’t have been bred due to X, Y, or Z and it will affect your future breeding because people will have those preconceived notions…even if your dog today deserves to be bred.

Truth is…this forum is a very weird picture of what happens in the real world. From what I’ve seen in the real world, “acceptable” is much more lax. Basically…breeders worry more about their reputation, and placing puppies. It really depends on the breeder’s goals at that point… When you do a breeding announcement, and in 2 days you have 10 people that “know” are calling you for puppies, you know you did something right. If you do a breeding announcement and no one except the dreaded “pet person” calls…you know that your pairing is probably lacking something, if your goal is to breed good working/sport dogs. The market, and the people around you (a lot of times in sport and sometimes in working venues) will tell you how it feels about the direction of your breeding program. Some breeders are more than happy to place all their dogs in “pet homes” others realize that it does mean more if you can place a large majority into sport homes (especially high level competitive ones) or even better yet you can place a dog in a SAR or K9 working home.

Don’t you believe it says a lot more about a breeder when they can say they’ve placed X amount of dogs into police departments, X amount of dogs into SAR teams, X amount of dogs have made it to nationals for IPO, than…all my dogs are living happily in regular homes?
 
#165 ·
martem, i will reply later but quickly. I know that it's subjective. my question should've been. you title the dog to 3 and in the process see things that you don't like. things you mightve condemned others for breeding. do you breed?
Carmen says she doesn't. to me that's impressive. I'd def struggle with this
 
#166 ·
As the person on the “male” side of things…if someone calls, if I think the female will offset my dog’s weaknesses, I’ll probably still go ahead with it. The way I personally think about it is, “will I want a puppy from this pair?” And it’s highly unlikely that a male, at an IPO3 level, has such glaring weaknesses that you probably wouldn’t want to breed him.

I’m assuming some people have a hard time being “objective” but I’ve noticed the more I work dogs, the more I realize how much the working ability is important, the easier it is to see the weaknesses in my dog and the strengths in others…and a lot of the people I train with are that way. It really helps me to understand what I want out of my next dog, what kind of drives, what kind of balance, and what IMO is the proper GSD.

I’m also not developing a breeding program/kennel though. I’m just focused on that dog, at that time, and seeing what I could do with him. Sure…if it starts to look like I’m just breeding to anyone that calls it’s a bad thing, but you’ll see that the end all be all dogs of the time don’t really discriminate and tend to just collect stud fees. If your stud fee is high enough (because it’s warranted) you’ll eliminate a lot of the breeders that we like to complain about anyways.
 
#167 ·
so once you get to 3 the dog can be bred? because if he had big enough problems then he wouldn't get there?

but I liked Jack's question. all breeders start somewhere. it takes time to develop a line and pups are born in the meanwhile.
so until they're reputable (whenever that is) they get called bybs and puppy millers on forums lol?
 
#169 ·
It’s got nothing to do with it can/can’t. If your dog has its equipment, it CAN be bred. The titles, the health checks, the other stuff, just shows how dedicated you are as a person, and how much you care as a breeder/stud owner. It tells your puppy buyers that you’re committed, that you’ve done your homework, and that you believe in what you’re doing. It tells people that know/care, that you do the same, and it shows them that you’re someone that is worth giving a large check to because more than likely the puppy will be what you’re looking for. It also tells them your dog is capable of X, Y, Z without you having to tell them a bunch of stories about why you haven’t titled the dog.

There are tons of ways to get into breeding. What this forum questions is someone that owns a purebred GSD for the first time, does nothing, and thinks it should be bred because it’s a purebred. I think what most people will tell you, is that it’s all about gathering information and breeding once you have enough information (in the eyes of potential buyers) that you know what you’re doing. It’s possible to get that information (about the dogs/breed) without breeding. You can go through 4-5 dogs, training in IPO, or other venues, learning about the breed, without breeding. Then you get to a point where you know exactly what you want, you know what a good GSD is, and you find that GSD…and when you go through all the other fun stuff, you realize you can breed that dog, and you do. You breed because you want something for yourself, you want an exceptional dog and the best way to control/get that is to do it yourself…so you breed that bitch to a male you like because you think that mix will give you what you want. And then so on and so on…

People get called names when they don’t go through the information gathering phase…when it’s clear they’re breeding their pets, they don’t test their dogs for things that those of us that “know” care about, that’s when people question things. You don’t need to be “breeding” for decades to be considered producing good litters…you’ll see that many people are just considered good because they’ve been involved in the breed for so long, that it’s hard to question their knowledge and their decisions.
 
#171 ·
Personally I'd take pedigree over titles; I want to see the lineage and what each and every dog has done. If the dog has nothing but IPO3 in every dog in the 5 generation+ you have a great chance of a solid dog for most venues. No different than if you see OFA clearances of Good to Excellent, DM, thyroid, etc for the same amount, that's very impressive and again the chances of having a overall healthy dog is fantastic

No dog is perfect, but eliminating the big issues is a no brainer. I look at the breeder's resume as well, just as much as the dog's ;) That's in the pedigree and dog in front of you. If I see a breeder breeding unknowns that makes me eyebrow raise and not something I'm comfortable with
 
#177 · (Edited)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack
question was "Do people really wash dogs out of breeding after all that because their nerves aren't as good or they're too aggressive or they're not as biddable?"

MY answer YES . Usually that would include the entire litter . Pruning .


what's prunning?

and if you really did this then you have my respect. I know how hard that is to do and that's what integrity is to me

Pruning is removing branches that don't contribute to health of the tree , or produce good fruit , or shaping to a design that you want .

Yes, honestly I do make those decisions - self-imposed .

One single dog from a litter has to be a fairly standard representation of the entire litter and his/her phenotype has to be a fairly standard representation of his/her genotype. No big differences .
Only then will you have predictability and uniformity .

What have I chosen to not go forward with -- two amazing males , the definition of stability , and beautiful conformation . Their nerves so good that they came out wagging when the furnace room had a bit of an explosion . I thought the worst had happened, almost tripped over their black little selves in the black sootiness of the room . They were waited for by a PD , kept checking in , testing etc . But at one point , both of them ended up with profound panosteitis . Laid flat . Both favoring the same limb for the same period . Looked like a choreographed dance pose . Every clear period everyone would get excited and the dogs were observed again -- only to fall into another lengthy down time .
I had them x rayed , clear all around - too young to certify . This would have been a pre purchase prelim for PD service --. I had them about 14 to 15 months . Warm social dogs with good drives and super confident .
We chose to redirect their futures , not putting them into service because although they were in a period where there had been a relatively long period without being waylaid by pano , any injury in training or on the street , would have denied them being used for work . The pano was quite profound.
It is not something I think about because I don't have to worry about it, don't experience it and sure do not want to introduce it into the lines I have.
So the two black dogs were sold .
I can track that the pano came from the sire , a recent import. The dam of that litter was very familiar to me through generations going backward , and she is a grand and great grandmother on current genetics - no pano before, no pano in any other combination.

Did a litter with "new" genetics -- the entire litter kept till about 8 months , to work and discover . Lots and lots of energy , bold , social dogs, real solid good looking dogs --- but a real pain to work -- that energy wasn't focused , superficial effort , not instinctive trackers, difficulty retaining skills , always needed to take a step back for a refresher , very sporty , flashy -- They were
properly placed where they were much appreciated but not for breeding for me .

Another dog bought , titles, pedigree top WGW and top Czech dam --- just an angry dog , almost uncontrollable aggression --

One combination didn't come up to expectations and then brother had one hip and one elbow with problems . So not used although my female was ofa'd good .

One co-bred combination using my lines and "new" elements -- good dogs -- 2 PD's , comments were "malinois with brains" --- sound nerves , but not the iconic GSD type.
So I chose not to continue with this

I've said this and given examples on other threads ,
where every one thinks it's about profit - a recent one comes to mind.
 
#180 ·
but a real pain to work -- that energy wasn't focused , superficial effort , not instinctive trackers, difficulty retaining skills , always needed to take a step back for a refresher , very sporty , flashy -
Lol I'm not kissing up but I always feel the need to cheerlead when I see something I like. it's amazing how much you know

and the paragraph above captivated me. I LOVE it when I see dogs read like this. I can't even imagine the knowledge it takes to be able to put that in words.

I always read your posts for snippets like above.
actually, I think it was one of your posts that talked about the need to be able to look critically at your dogs and make tough decisions.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top