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How about those Breeder, Breeding threads.

27K views 203 replies 36 participants last post by  selzer 
#1 ·
To me they are often counter productive.

Accepted breeders and practices go something like this:

Hobby Breeder.
Titles potential breeding stock themselves.
Breeding stock and lineage should be titled.
All should be health tested. Hips and elbows and other health test such as for DM.
Working line preferred.
A few litters a yea.r
This is a short general version of the more acceptable forum dog and breeder.

The problem is there are not that many breeders like this and not everyone is interested in these things anyway.

Among the general population most don't know or care what IPO is.

When they come on here the quickly learn that their dogs suck because they don't fit the criteria and worse they may have even purchased from a BYB.

Often then they disappear to not be heard from again.

There must be a better way than insisting there is only one kind of breeder and one kind of dog that is acceptable.

On another note. There is no breeder bashing allowed. So the solution to that is for someone to announce that they have PM'd someone. Which is board speak for "your breeder stinks".

Has to be a better way. This way it is not very welcoming or understanding of about 90 percent of the GSD owning population. IMO.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Yes we could tell them their pets is wonderful and everything the breed should be. Ofcourse he is awesome, happy breeding!

Its a free country, if they want to breed their pet they can. However, that does not mean that they should recieve affirmation that their weak nerved dog has great breeding potential or comes from a great breeder.

IPO is the main reason there are still working calibre GSDs available, it really doesnt matter if most people dont care. Most people are not breeding GSDs even if they own one.
 
#3 ·
Thanks Blitz for the perfect example.

The GSD did not come from nor was it created to do IPO.

First the breed and then IPO.

IPO will tell you something about the dog in front of you not guarantee what it will produce.

IPO represents (from various different sources) less than 10% and more like 1% of the GSDs in Canada and the U.S..

You have something against Dogs for the blind. I don't think they do IPO first.
 
#19 ·
Thanks Blitz for the perfect example.

The GSD did not come from nor was it created to do IPO.

First the breed and then IPO.

IPO was created for the breed in order to judge potential breeding dogs impartially, follow that piece of info to the logical conclusion. 90% of dogs in IPO are not breed worthy. Similarly contemplate that nugget.

IPO will tell you something about the dog in front of you not guarantee what it will produce.

IPO represents (from various different sources) less than 10% and more like 1% of the GSDs in Canada and the U.S..

Yes 99% of GSDs in Canada and the USA do not meet the minimum standard of what makes a working dog.

You have something against Dogs for the blind. I don't think they do IPO first.
No I have nothing against guide dogs, but it is not the ideal temperment or drive for the GSD.

Again here is a hint, if labs and Goldens can do and are infact the majority of dogs doing "IT" it its not a breedworthy occupation for the GSD.

Can some dogs do it? Yes
Should those dogs be touted as ideal. Emphatically NO



As to those concerned about this being a working dog forum.. Have no fear about 99% of the threads currently active should put your hearts at rest that this is very much mainly a pet forum.
The majority of people on here and that own these dogs are not realistic about what they have or what makes a breeding dog.

That does not mean their mis information or fantasies should be affirmed.
 
#7 ·
Not involved in IPO. Yes I have two working line dogs from kennels who are actively involved. I prefer working lines. Personal preference but I believe the forum should include everyone.

Many who didn't get their dog from an "approved breeder" or it is not the "right " kind of dog are drowned out. Many have left.

If this was a working dog forum I would understand it.
 
#5 · (Edited)
I have gotten that feeling on here more then once. Threads that have nothing to do with bite work all of the sudden have someone making a comment about it. I tend to ignore threads that even remotely look like it will favor one type of dog. I have no interest in IPO and yet I took Robyn for an evaluation. Why? I felt that I had to prove something and I'm still not even sure to who. She passed, whoop d do. After she passed I told them no thanks and moved on to agility. I have a Craigslist GSD and a shelter GSD and they are perfect. My focus is enjoying my dogs and to do what's right by them with diet, exercise, and veterinarian care. I'm not going to let science decide that because my dogs come from a breeder that they might or might not get ill. I also have nothing against breeders that put everything they have into producing the GSD, whether it's a show dog, therapy dog, agility dog, or police dog, etc. No one can predict what will happen no matter where they come from. It's the same with kids, we can only hope they will be healthy and we certainly aren't going to give them up if they get sick, we just don't know. They all need a home and they all deserve one. At the end of the day I know I have very stable good temperament dogs and I don't care if they would protect and I don't need them to bite a sleeve to prove it one way or the other. I go to sleep at night feeling blessed to have them in my life and I feel safe. I can only hope they know how much I love them and what I would do to keep them safe. I don't have anything against people who do the sport, but I don't think those dogs are any better then the rest and that is the feeling I get from some(not all). I just don't let it bother me anymore and I enjoy what I have and they can enjoy what they have, so everyone is happy.
 
#13 ·
Ok I have to comment on this because it's been posted multiple times now. It doesn't matter if your dog passed an EVALUATION to BEGIN thinking about training in IPO, that doesn't mean she could title. Two totally different things. Every one of my dogs would pass the eval (and 3 have) but only 1 of them has actual nerves that are worth a crap. Two would get by on drive at a club level and the other isn't really nervy but just not a sport type dog. "Passing an evaluation" is worlds apart from training and titling.

I don't think anybody has ever put down your dog (or dogs) or said she was horrible or undesirable, it's just that she's not a dog you would build a breeding program around. Sometimes people make this about their own dogs, like people are saying they are terrible and there's no way you should love or even like them, instead of about the real issue which is GSDs in general. My dogs are not breeding material but I still love them to death and it doesn't hurt my feelings for anyone to point out their faults.
 
#6 ·
I don't personally think that all dogs really need to be IPO titled to be deemed breed worthy. However, the GSD is a working breed, so it should have some working experience to speak of. It could be IPO, Herding, police, SAR, what ever. Just as long as the dog is really tested. That is the important thing to me. The dog just needs to be trainable and be able to work under pressure.
 
#9 ·
Right and working in some households is the dog watching over the house. There are lots of pet homes that aren't involved in anything and those dogs aren't bad off because it works for the family. Yes it would be great if all GSD's could be involved in something but they aren't and that doesn't make them any less of a GSD. Geez if everyone set out to make their GSD's breed worthy we would have many more in shelters and dying daily. There has to be a balance somewhere. This is a wonderful breed and I could never tell someone they don't have a quality dog because it doesn't do this or that. That dog means the world to them no matter what the dog does.
 
#18 ·
I'm a pet home (hope to eventually do sport, but alas... I don't have the time right now), and I have never been discouraged or demeaned in any way here.

The people asking "should I breed my dog because she's really pretty and the sweetest dog ever" really do need to be told "no, spay your pet." People get all twisted when they don't hear what they want to, but that doesn't mean they don't need to hear it. And people get combative and then the whole thing usually spirals. I am guilty of reading threads that I know will be a spectacular display of sheer stupidity. And when I say stupidity, I don't mean "I don't know squat but I want to learn", I mean "Should I do this? No?! YOU DON'T KNOW ME! YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING!"

It's not that this forum doesn't like pet owners, it's that they don't really like owners who don't actually care about the breed or what it's supposed to be. I'm a pet home, but I believe in solid breeding. There may not be many showline breeders on this forum, but the ones that are are well respected. The breeders that are universally despised here are the ones breeding carelessly, breeding soft, watered down, oversized. And yes, breeding "pets".... in the sense of, "I don't want an active dog, I never leave my house, but I like the look of a GSD."

The pet homes that are respected here are the ones that appreciate the breed for what it is supposed to be (a working breed, and yeah, the definition is open to interpretation), and comes willing to learn and work with their dogs.

Sorry, I just get all riled up when people cry about "pet owners are hated here"... often the people who say that (not saying you in particular, lala) posted questions, didn't like what they heard, and took something the wrong way.
 
#16 ·
to be honest, IPO is as much about the handling as it is about the dog. And the handler has to have a very thick skin to carry on. Giving up happens pretty often, those that stick with it prove their mettle.
I guess if one can't handle a forum discussion, and leave then it is a good thing for the health of the person's mentality.
 
#20 ·
My feeling is rather what ugavet somewhat posted.

Most new and some old posters, (not being specific, just a generalization), don't like the answers to their questions. They come on here all gung ho on breeding Fido, and when someone points out why it probably shouldn't be done, they get all defensive, peeved, leave, and do what they are going to do..They come for validation and when they don't get it, they get into a tizzy.

And it's not just the breeding aspect , it could be any topic..

I admit I can absolutely lose patience and probably post things that aren't all sweet and nice or what one might want to hear. BUT I have never ever said any dog posted on this forum was 'ugly' or doesn't deserve to have the best life ever or put down where the dog came from.

I don't care that my working line dog(s) haven't been 'worked' or shown in years..I just don't do it anymore, they are for my enjoyment and fill my life daily..I don't care what others think.

I DO think breeders should be held to a higher standard, be producing the best they can, and I think the breeders on this forum, when they do contribute something should be taken seriously because the majority of them have been doing it for years , and are a wealth of knowledge.

When one posts something, they should be prepared to hear the good with the bad and decide for themselves what is worth listening to and what isn't..
 
#45 ·
My feeling is rather what ugavet somewhat posted.

Most new and some old posters, (not being specific, just a generalization), don't like the answers to their questions. They come on here all gung ho on breeding Fido, and when someone points out why it probably shouldn't be done, they get all defensive, peeved, leave, and do what they are going to do..They come for validation and when they don't get it, they get into a tizzy.

And it's not just the breeding aspect , it could be any topic..

I admit I can absolutely lose patience and probably post things that aren't all sweet and nice or what one might want to hear. BUT I have never ever said any dog posted on this forum was 'ugly' or doesn't deserve to have the best life ever or put down where the dog came from.

I don't care that my working line dog(s) haven't been 'worked' or shown in years..I just don't do it anymore, they are for my enjoyment and fill my life daily..I don't care what others think.

I DO think breeders should be held to a higher standard, be producing the best they can, and I think the breeders on this forum, when they do contribute something should be taken seriously because the majority of them have been doing it for years , and are a wealth of knowledge.

When one posts something, they should be prepared to hear the good with the bad and decide for themselves what is worth listening to and what isn't..

In general, the breeders' posts have educated me the most about GSDs specifically. I am grateful they take the time to type enough to really explain things.

I feel bad when new people are ambushed and then don't come back. I don't know the answer to that because I think posters should tell the "truth."

I think there is a lot of bashing of ASL versus WGSL versus working lines. Human nature to think theirs is best? I have enjoyed the posts about working lines and LE, SAR, detonation, etc., and have learned a lot. My dog is a WGSL.

I guess I am most grateful for the help everyone gives to help me understand more about this amazing breed of dog. They also help me to be a good dog owner.

I think there are wonderfully supportive people here. When dogs get sick or pass, posters really have a big heart.
 
#22 ·
echo, i agree, they need to be told not to breed their dogs but there are a million ways of doing it and saying 'spay your pet' (first of all, why spay? why is it breed or spay? it's not either or) is just so condescending
like they're using the word 'pet' to underline the unworthiness of the dog.

just sharing my feeling about it. if this was me posting (and I wanted to breed my dog before I knew about breeding the right way) I'd curse everyone out and leave. and breed out of spite.

almost everyone wanted to breed at some point. no one deserves to be ridiculed like this. and their dog put down like this. there are ways to say things.
 
#27 ·
I personally would never want to breed, I will leave that to the professionals. I do agree that some questions asked are from people that might not know what actually goes into breeding. I see some of the titles of threads and think hasn't this been asked and answered about 100 times:)
 
#43 ·
This is the quote I was referring to. I did not mean to imply you specifically were drinking the cool aid. If you don't like the thread don't post.

I don't ask for permission or advice before I start a thread.

Love Echo, Jax can take care of herself as you have just seen.
Love Echo many of my threads are on the breed standard and what a GSD should be. The fact that many aren't is a huge concern to me.
 
#25 ·
I didn't read all the responses to the original assertion.... but I do know this....if it weren't for breeders I would not have had the 3 GSDs I have been graced with over my life. Yes, some punched out way too early...6 and 8 years old....but what great years they were, regardless of the heartache. Suppose I could blame the breeders but I more blame myself for my lack of due diligence.

SuperG
 
#31 ·
I never said it was a conspiracy. it's just how things are. what they say carries much more weight.

I'm not looking to find anything. I read a forum and I'm telling you what I see. this isn't about something said towards me, this is a theme through thread after thread.

however, it's a good point that they have the most knowledge so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. but for one reason or another they run the show. and for one reason or another, unless you do sport you aren't cool (again, don't twist this as me saying something I'm not. this isn't about me. I don't want to be cool, I go my own way. this is about how people are treated here in general)
 
#32 ·
:shrug: Guess I must be missing something... it's actually the sport people who have been kindest and most helpful to me in my silly little pet owner problems. I know I'm not alone, either. I think the pet owners are in the majority... and pet owners who have never felt slighted here are the majority of those...

I've found that the most brutal political BS, mockery, eyerolling... is within the sport people, between the sport people. But that's the nature of the game and happens with anything and everything that involves this much blood, sweat, tears, and money.
 
#33 ·
they have been helpful to me too. along with others. I'm thankful for all advice I received here, this forum helped the most in my training and that's why I'm still here. along with the entertainment :)

this isn't about me though. this is reading almost every thread here and some things I see.

and i was bullied somewhat by them as well. I'd name a few but the rules, you know :)
that wouldn't bother me, I can stand up for myself but this is where the power and influence comes in. I can only say so much before I'm told to shut up but their comments remain. not a level playing field.
oh well, life isn't fair
 
#40 ·
The more I think on that comment the angrier I get. So a person believes there should be standards. Why is that a bad thing? "drink the cool-aid" like we're being led around by our nose. There IS a standard. We didn't write it. The founder of the breed wrote it. We aren't just making stuff up as we go along.

Do I believe that IPO is the only way to test a dog for breed worthiness? No. There are k9s, SAR, Guide. Do I believe that only sport or working people should own a GSD? NO. This dog is supposed to be able to settle in the house and be a family dog and still maintain the ability to work.

I have NEVER insulted anyone's dog or said they were less. I have plainly stated I have dogs that are not breed worthy and the reasons why. I find the whole premise of this thread offensive.
 
#42 ·
It's just fundamental common sense that you're not going to get a lot of support for breeding outside the standards (or without testing of any kind, be it health or temperament) on a forum dedicated to a specific breed with a specific set of standards. And those "sport people" who have all the "power" here are going to be particularly passionate about it because it's what they work with and what they work to preserve every day.

Like I said- this sentiment is echoed on every forum about every breed. There's really not a lot of wiggle room for discussion on what makes a good breeder anywhere. You should see horse people get going, if you think it's bad here.


To echo Jax's sentiment, my cruddy BYB dog (I'm being tongue-in-cheek here) has been just as kindly received as my well-bred, sport-pedigree dog.
 
#47 · (Edited)
I'm confused Jack's Dad. You've said on multiple threads that the only ones that should voice an opinion about breeding are the breeders, yet now anyone that follows what the breeders and "experienced" are saying are "drinking the koolaid." SO, who should we followers follow? Who should we support?

I think it's crappy to demean a person's stance by saying they are "drinking the koolaid." Why can't someone agree with people that are in the thick of the breed, testing it, breeding it, washing it, etc...It's like anyone that wants to hold things to a standard is "mean." I hate that taking a stance on a subject is "drinking the koolaid" and that disagreeing and stating why is "bashing" and "chasing people off." It's ridiculous.

Also, I get that you want to appease to everyone's "feelings" and not chase people off. However, I am of the opinion that some people have no ability to take anything other than defensively and personally.

I agree with pretty much everything LoveEcho pointed out, are you going to address any of her points and stances, Jack's Dad? She's made a lot of good statements, about experience, knowledge, how it's gained....the standard...why some seem to take things so personally. You just keep answering those that are placating to the emotion of this thread, instead of answering your questions and concerns.

Edit: Removed my last paragraph.
 
#56 ·
I'm confused Jack's Dad. You've said on multiple threads that the only ones that should voice an opinion about breeding are the breeders, yet now anyone that follows what the breeders and "experienced" are saying are "drinking the koolaid." SO, who should we followers follow? Who should we support?
I think it's crappy to demean a person's stance by saying they are "drinking the koolaid." Why can't someone agree with people that are in the thick of the breed, testing it, breeding it, washing it, etc...It's like anyone that wants to hold things to a standard is "mean." I hate that taking a stance on a subject is "drinking the koolaid" and that disagreeing and stating why is "bashing" and "chasing people off." It's ridiculous.

Listen to who you want but as you know there is a wide world outside this forum of very knowledgeable GSD folks. I think your pup came through some of them.
Also, I get that you want to appease to everyone's "feelings" and not chase people off. However, I am of the opinion that some people have no ability to take anything other than defensively and personally.

I agree with pretty much everything LoveEcho pointed out, are you going to address any of her points and stances, Jack's Dad? She's made a lot of good statements, about experience, knowledge, how it's gained....the standard...why some seem to take things so personally. You just keep answering those that are placating to the emotion of this thread, instead of answering your questions and concerns.

Edit: Removed my last paragraph.
To the bolded. People can listen to whomever they want but remember there is a wide world of very knowledgeable GSD folks out there. I think you got your puppy through some of them.
.
No I'm not going to respond to everything Love Echo posted. I agree with a lot of it and have said so in the past.
 
#48 ·
I agree that there HAS to be standards, and that's the best way to maintain the integrity of the breed. However, you can take two of the best dogs in the world, get them all the titles (herding, IPO, tracking, SAR, whatever) and then breed them to each other. They have 7 puppies. How many of the pups are going to be able to do everything that the sire and dam did?
It's a crapshoot and always has been. It's the old nature vs nurture argument.
Conversely, back the "old days", we got police K9's from the shelter. I had two of them that I worked. An old time trainer told me "sure, I can train a shelter dog to do K9 work, it's just a matter of how many times the handler gets bit during that training".
In the end, performance matters.
In my humble opinion, and to quote Judge Smails from Caddyshack, "The world needs ditch diggers too."
Not everyone wants (or can handle) a WL dog. I've also done enough work in GSD rescue to know what happens when they try.
I've heard breeders use that argument to explain higher fees for the best working prospects.
 
#49 ·
I agree, Randy. Just because the parents are great, doesn't mean the offspring will be. But some of those puppies will work, maybe all to some degree, and some are more suitable for pets. Everybody can't be a superstar.

BUT, I also think this is where good breeders come in. They will know what a dog is throwing. They can guestimate what the litter should produce. It's not fool proof. But what I see with inexperienced people that just want to experience the joys of birth or want Fifi's daughter to raise is they throw dogs together that have issues and create more dogs with issues. That's where I have problems. Because, as an experienced foster, how many times have you seen just a genetic hot mess full of anxiety?
 
#54 · (Edited)
I think that most breeders are incredibly busy, and this forum has lost a lot of steam. Lots of people have gone to Facebook. And people are out with their dogs, their work, and their lives.

There are cliques here, and group think. People do know right away what things are accepted and sympathized with, and what things are going to get the slam dunk. I think a post from certain people can change the tide and tone of a thread. And when someone posts what have been posted umpteen times before, many of the newer converts to what makes an acceptable breeder around here are going to lead the charge against such a one. What they fail to realize, is that this is the umpteenth post on the subject that forum members have read, but for the poster it is the first. They haven't usually been around long enough to realize that what they said has just planted them amongst the doomed heathens.

So they get huffy and defend themselves and get are real trouncing or they think people here are totally batty and leave, in both cases they do exactly what they wanted to do. I really don't think it helps much or gets people to go an extra couple of feet when breeding, much less the whole nine yards.

And then there is the usual stuff: I got this great puppy, it's a &$##@$ puppy, and I intend to breed it, what do I need to do? or My girl is going to be 2 in the spring and where do I go to find a good stud dog. But then you have the stuff like, should I breed my bitch to her sire? I mean, there is something in the idea that if you are ready, you aren't going to be asking here, but to put together very close in-breeding, you have to be a little better than ready, you have to know everything about your lines and have a plan and a purpose, you have to know a little more than how to spell the name of the breed, and you aren't going to be asking advice on a forum made up of mostly pet owners whether they do IPO or not.

I think you have people who like the various working lines, and people who like the various show lines. Maybe that is somewhat regional. Maybe in some areas the show lines are nervier, and in some areas, the working lines are crazier. But if people do prefer one line to another, it will get their dander up to hear the entire line criticized. I mean, to hear that the nervy dogs are coming only from dogs that are not from IPO lines, is a way to say, "our dogs are better than your dogs." The thing is, ALL the lines have examples of behavior unbecoming to a GSD.
 
#57 ·
I just don't understand how people who do not do IPO are the ones who criticize it. IPO is so complex and nuanced. To bring a dog all the way from a pup to a titled dog takes a good dog and some pretty complex training an problem solving by his handler. However, the title its self is not what is important. What is important is what you learn about your dog along the way. The way your dog thinks, they way he solves problems, they way he maintains focus under stress and distraction. How easily he can switch drives and think clear. How fast he can grasp a new concept and connect the dots. How he easily he can chain complex behavior to delayed reward. Does he have the fundamental aggression level required by the breed to combat an advisory yet be clear headed enough to be able to hear, trust and respond to a handler who is communicating from a distance. These are things you cannot learn about your dog by just teaching it to walk around the neighborhood and pull on the leash or by watching it bark at the window at people who walk down the street. You also cannot learn these things by taking your dog to a schutzhund evaluation. You have to dig into the sport and actually take your dog through the paces. You have to get up early in the morning and track your dog when it feels so good to sleep in a little longer. You have to be willing to accept the fact that your dog may be weak in areas and you might learn some stuff about your dog that you did not know. Worse, you might find out some things in front of a crowd of on lookers. IPO can be stressful. I can understand why not everyone wants to do it. I just don't know how anyone who does not do it can think they have a clue what it is all about. My own dog is 3 years old and I am still trying to figure out how to overcome some weakness in him. Weakness that I would be oblivious too if I did not get up and take some risk and put in some effort.

My point is that IPO will allow a breeder who is honest with what they have learned about their dogs through the training process make much more informed breeding decisions. Decision that will benefit future pup owners whether they be working, sport or pet homes.
 
#58 ·
And no, IPO is not the only way to learn all these things about your dog. It is just one of the ways you can. It was designed to give you a framework from which to test your dog. The important thing to me is that the dog is really tested before it is bred.
 
#60 ·
" And when someone posts what have been posted umpteen times before, many of the newer converts to what makes an acceptable breeder around here are going to lead the charge against such a one. What they fail to realize, is that this is the umpteenth post on the subject that forum members have read, but for the poster it is the first. They haven't usually been around long enough to realize that what they said has just planted them amongst the doomed heathens. "


The only people exempt from this stigma are those who joined this forum first.....everything after that is "old hat" in those folk's eyes.

Somebody who is a first time GSD owner and uptight about the growth rate of their pup or the typical queries...nipping etc. still have a real life situation which is brand new to them and of a certain magnitude.

I might suggest it is somewhat a rite of passage and be embraced respectfully. We all were in a similar boat at a point in our lives.

Did I just repeat what you said?


SuperG
 
#90 ·
I was speaking toward the I-want-to-breed-my-dog posts, moreso than anything else. I think that for the most part, people asking training questions, and puppy questions, and rescue questions, and gee-my-dog-just-bit-someone questions, usually get a pretty fair shake.

It is the ones that ask about breeding their dogs that generally get their clocks cleaned. To a point, that makes sense. I mean, if we were the little town of Stepford, we would just say, "Oh yes, sure, and post pictures." There is a balance. People do need to suggest the dangers, the types of things that breeders ought to consider prior to breeding, the work in whelping, raising, and placing puppies. And even that much is often taken personally and elicits a defensive response.

It is the internet. Sometimes the OP will go overboard and get defensive when only information and not judgement or bashing takes place, and other times the responders will upset the balance, but the moments when an OP dreaming of breeding their dog receives the information and advice in such a way that they get what they need without being offended is probably about as typical as when forum members win the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes.
 
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