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How about those Breeder, Breeding threads.

27K views 203 replies 36 participants last post by  selzer 
#1 ·
To me they are often counter productive.

Accepted breeders and practices go something like this:

Hobby Breeder.
Titles potential breeding stock themselves.
Breeding stock and lineage should be titled.
All should be health tested. Hips and elbows and other health test such as for DM.
Working line preferred.
A few litters a yea.r
This is a short general version of the more acceptable forum dog and breeder.

The problem is there are not that many breeders like this and not everyone is interested in these things anyway.

Among the general population most don't know or care what IPO is.

When they come on here the quickly learn that their dogs suck because they don't fit the criteria and worse they may have even purchased from a BYB.

Often then they disappear to not be heard from again.

There must be a better way than insisting there is only one kind of breeder and one kind of dog that is acceptable.

On another note. There is no breeder bashing allowed. So the solution to that is for someone to announce that they have PM'd someone. Which is board speak for "your breeder stinks".

Has to be a better way. This way it is not very welcoming or understanding of about 90 percent of the GSD owning population. IMO.
 
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#64 · (Edited)
I think as long as you are happy with your companion/teammate, that is what matters. There should always be a standard for something. I have an uncle who lives in the sticks so to speak. He has an aussie that he has bred once or twice in the 10 years hes had her. She isn't registered or show quality animal. But he loves her temperment and ability to work even though she hasn't been titled. He has kept a few of the pups to take her place. He personally thinks that dog registries are pretty much just another way for an organization to profit. I don't think that's entirely true. I think registries and such can be good tools, but agree it should not be the only tool when making a decision. That being said, I do take my hat off to those that truly love the breed. Personally, I think things are more complicated since from my reading, the breed is fairly new compared to others. Much easier to make a case on breeds that have been documented for years like an Akita or Chow.
 
#67 ·
I think as long as you are happy with your companion/teammate, that is what matters. There should always be a standard for something. I have an uncle who lives in the sticks so to speak. He has an aussie that he has bred once or twice in the 10 years hes had her. She isn't registered or show quality animal. But he loves her temperment and ability to work even though she hasn't been titled. He personally thinks that dog registries are pretty much just another way for an organization to profit. I don't think that's entirely true. I think registries and such can be good tools, but agree it should not be the only tool when making a decision. That being said, I do take my hat off to those that truly love the breed. Personally, I think things are more complicated since from my reading, the breed is fairly new compared to others. Much easier to make a case on breeds that have been documented for years like an Akita or Chow.
Agreed! There have actually been a lot of discussions on working dogs bred with no titles (i.e. dogs who are worked but do not compete in IPO), and whether they should be bred, etc. Almost always the consensus on those threads are that the breeder needs to know everything about the dog and their temperament, and that people who seriously work their dogs in those sorts of venues and know their working ability and temperament aren't "bad" at all, if they're still breeding with careful consideration to bloodlines, health, etc.

I don't think I've ever seen one person's dog be spoken of negatively here. Actually, I have, but it was sport people bashing other sport people. Saying your dog should not be bred to a pet owner who doesn't work their dog, has no idea what health testing is, etc, is not bashing someone's dog, it's not being negative abut them. It's just a fact.
 
#70 ·
There are some good points and interesting responses on this thread. I think there is a division between pet people and sport people although I don't think it's that big of a deal.

The biggest division on here I see is working line versus Show line. You rarely ever see Show lines discussed in any seriousness. In fact the recent thread titled "unicorn sighting" was a perfect example of how show lines are never taken seriously.

Granted I get that there are a lot of SLs that washout. But there's a lot of working lines that probably do too. I suspect that most of the working like people that have those dogs don't compete in IPO just like anything else. Or they are more easily trained to hide the weaknesses. In my opinion, I would prefer ability over looks. How a dog looks is clearly not as important as working or ability/temperament in general. But there are definitely WL breeders that sacrifice a lot of confirmation. I've seen them. Neither one is good.

But in general this board is biased towards working lines. That may be neither here nor there but it's true.
 
#74 ·
There are some good points and interesting responses on this thread. I think there is a division between pet people and sport people although I don't think it's that big of a deal.

The biggest division on here I see is working line versus Show line. You rarely ever see Show lines discussed in any seriousness. In fact the recent thread titled "unicorn sighting" was a perfect example of how show lines are never taken seriously.

Granted I get that there are a lot of SLs that washout. But there's a lot of working lines that probably do too. I suspect that most of the working like people that have those dogs don't compete in IPO just like anything else. Or they are more easily trained to hide the weaknesses. In my opinion, I would prefer ability over looks. How a dog looks is clearly not as important as working or ability/temperament in general. But there are definitely WL breeders that sacrifice a lot of confirmation. I've seen them. Neither one is good.

But in general this board is biased towards working lines. That may be neither here nor there but it's true.


I agree. AND I want to know as much as I can about GSDs so I hang around to learn and I try not to personalize it. At least my WGSL's sire is a TeMar dog ......
 
#76 · (Edited)
This exactly. When you look at the standard(which I think is pretty accurate for the GSD) it says GSD and is not divided by the lines, it's across the board.
 
#81 ·
:) But not your breeding. And it was informative! Maybe those words of wisdom were bourne out of experience. That's definitely something to consider.

But as always, you just eventually have to get out and walk that road yourself. You can read story upon story, but the only way you get experience is by doing.

@Robk
 
#84 ·
That breeding will never happen. The owner of the female is looking at a different male now. I suggested him to her and then I unsuggested it to her after that thread. :eek: I doubt she would have taken my suggestion anyway. She is much to conservative of a breeder.
 
#95 ·
So I'm coming to this thread 10 pages in...Andy, what are you suggesting? Get rid of those forums? Or is this just a vent?

I have had show lines, working lines, and a show/work cross. I personally do not feel any generalized stigma toward any of the three. If I don't like a thread or the direction its taking, I just ignore it. Often if I have something to add (as in, I actually know the person being talked about, or I've met/know the dogs involved), I just PM the OP and take it from there.

I do not think there are many breeders active on this forum, so my critique of that section is that it's hard to have a real discussion about breeding. I mean, there are pedigrees and all that but when you actually BREED dogs, get down to the nitty gritty of how its done and everything that might be new or confusing or go wrong, I don't usually see those types of threads take off or vet more than one or two valuable responses.

But if breeders don't want to participate they don't have to. I see a lot of double standards being imposed by armchair breeders.

I breed one of my dogs but don't usually discuss it here. I don't need the public to validate my decisions and I have really good mentors that I talk to and get help from in person, people who have been breeding longer than I've been alive and have seen it all.
 
#97 ·
Also as my "best" dog is my WGSL, I can't say I feel there is a bias against show lines here. I do think that many people are appropriately critical, as I am too. I've spent considerable time traveling around to shows, clubs, trials, and doing the WGSL thing, and am too often disappointed. If people "default" to working lines, that's fine with me I guess. The bottom line is, my dog has an insane amount of training and probably more titles and accomplishments than most GSDs in this country and I'm not saying this to brag, but that I do not take personal offense if someone writes of WGSL or whatever, that's their prerogative. They can call my dog crap all day but let's put up or shut up :)
 
#98 ·
If someone were to come on here, and ask for opinions on what lines (or breedings) to look for to do what you've done Lies, you know that 99% of it is going to be " get a working line". Very rarely do people suggest WGSL or even 'worse', ASL. :shrug: You and I and others may know different, but that's what the majority would say here.

(That is not to be confused with people actually asking if their SL can 'do' these things. Most of the time the answer will be 'yes'. But in asking for which line to go for, most will suggest WL).
 
#99 ·
I don't see that as a bias against show lines though, I just think there may be more active WL people on the forum, and then people who have decided WL are best/getting one next time. 99% of the time when people ask me for a breeder recommendation, I'm recommending working line breeders, and not because *I* think WL are "better", but because I've just had better experiences with certain breeders, or have seen newbies have better experiences with certain WL breeders (even if those breeders are not selling a dog but recommending someone else in their area).
 
#100 ·
That could be true. I also have heard (and seen a little myself) of disappointment regarding SL's in certain venues. But I've also heard from reliable sources that I trust, who spend an inordinate amount of time in those same venues that there are plenty of SL that can and do work.

I don't think you are biased. But there certainly are aplenty on here.
 
#101 ·
I dont know Lies.

There just seems to be no end to determining who the ethical or reputable breeders are. I saw a thread the other day where one of the breeders on here took issue with another because they were just making money, and had way too many litters.

I took a look at the evil breeders site and yes they produced a lot of dogs.

They imported some and bred some of their own. Working lines all titled, with hips and elbows recorded, numerous other health tests. Some were really nice looking dogs but they are on the negative list for making money and too many litters. Who determines this stuff?

Well I think by now it has just been determined over time on here by a group of people who have known each other for quite awhile. Either online or in person.

Then there is the no breeder bashing. You are allowed to say good things. If someone doesn't like a breeder then they take it to a PM. Once the PMs start flying back and forth then some will assume the breeder in question is lousy. If the breeder is not a member of the board they can't defend that.
Don't have a ready made answer it just doesn't seem right to me.
 
#106 ·
There just seems to be no end to determining who the ethical or reputable breeders are. I saw a thread the other day where one of the breeders on here took issue with another because they were just making money, and had way too many litters.

I took a look at the evil breeders site and yes they produced a lot of dogs.

They imported some and bred some of their own. Working lines all titled, with hips and elbows recorded, numerous other health tests. Some were really nice looking dogs but they are on the negative list for making money and too many litters. Who determines this stuff?
People are always going to have their opinions. That's the beauty of a site like this. You get all types of people with all types of experience. It's the internet, so most aren't going to be shy to tell you how they really feel. Take in what you want and ignore what you want to ignore.

I think people need to just educate themselves the best they can, but in the end, get the type of dog that best fits what they find ideal for their situation and goals for the dog.
 
#102 ·
I could be jaded....but luckily I'm not! My first GSD was a working line female, not a bad pedigree either (and for those that throw around points and titles, the sire was a SchH3 dog with multiple 100 pt scores, imported by someone who knows her stuff), and she was a total basket case. No confidence, nervy dog, had a bunch of really weird/crazy/neurotic behaviors, terrified of my own husband who is a very kind, gentle person (would poop on the floor if he accidentally startled her). But, alas, I evaluate each individual dog rather than generalizing that WL are nervy basket cases, right?
 
#104 · (Edited)
Deep down, Andy, you know I really agree with you and share many of the same criticisms but I just don't know that it really matters here. It's a public forum so there is always going to be discussion and people being hypocritical, kennel blind, or giving advice on something they actually know nothing about. Just the nature of a well established public forum. My experience in actually breeding dogs and spending time with breeders is that there is a lot of "do as I say, not as I do" that goes on.

As far as larger scale breeding, I know of one such breeder and used to steer clear because I was concerned of the sheer volume of dogs being produced, but lately when I attend events in this region, often the majority of entries come from this breeder so I cannot accuse them of not walking the walk. I personally would be bankrupt after a single event if I had to fund all of those entries and the training, handling, supplies, travel, etc that goes into showcasing dogs at an event at their scale. It also happens to be a breeder that is actually breeding the 4th, 5th, 6th.... generation of THEIR dogs, not just importing dark sables with foreign titles and "hobby breeding". Not everyone is going to like their type of dog, but for those that do, they produce dogs that will and do succeed in those venues that they say. Nothing more, nothing less.

The no breeding bashing rule has nothing to do with the forum protecting actual breeders, the forum is protecting ITSELF and its members. Believe me, mods are dealing with some crazy crap right now.

ETA: I don't get why PMs make people assume a breeder is bad? I just sent a PM this evening because a thread involving a breeder went south and I actually had some firsthand knowledge and input (personal opinions based on actually observing the person and dog and a breeding experience with said breeder) so I PM'd the OP. Nothing negative intended or implied.
 
#105 ·
Deep down, Andy, you know I really agree with you and share many of the same criticisms but I just don't know that it really matters here. It's a public forum so there is always going to be discussion and people being hypocritical, kennel blind, or giving advice on something they actually know nothing about. Just the nature of a well established public forum. My experience in actually breeding dogs and spending time with breeders is that there is a lot of "do as I say, not as I do" that goes on.

As far as larger scale breeding, I know of one such breeder and used to steer clear because I was concerned of the sheer volume of dogs being produced, but lately when I attend events in this region, often the majority of entries come from this breeder so I cannot accuse them of not walking the walk. I personally would be bankrupt after a single event if I had to fund all of those entries and the training, handling, supplies, travel, etc that goes into showcasing dogs at an event at their scale. It also happens to be a breeder that is actually breeding the 4th, 5th, 6th.... generation of THEIR dogs, not just importing dark sables with foreign titles and "hobby breeding". Not everyone is going to like their type of dog, but for those that do, they produce dogs that will and do succeed in those venues that they say. Nothing more, nothing less.

The no breeding bashing rule has nothing to do with the forum protecting actual breeders, the forum is protecting ITSELF and its members. Believe me, mods are dealing with some crazy crap right now.
I like this post.
 
#113 ·
a term used on this forum often is, "different flavors of gsd". if all breeders are striving to meet a standard, how can there be different flavors. ie, working line vs show line. of course there will be some variation between gsd, looks, coat color size ect... but should there be a difference between working and show line if all breed to standard? is breeding for certain exaggerated attributes really following the original standard?
 
#118 ·
"
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack
far from it . Working ability must be intentionally chosen for and tested .

to which Sabis said "I disagree"

On your other thread many members, myself included , tried to point out to you that (quote Sabis) a dog that is "highly independent/challenging to train and does not thrive in a show/sport setting." , is not what a breeder should be breeding . Dog also described as difficult .
So contrary to what a good GSD should be . Not a candidate for working , and likely not a good pet because a pet owner at the least wants a dog that is happily interactive with them .

GSD shouldn't be bred for pet . GSD should be bred so that the basic temperament and stability of the dog allows the dog to be a very GOOD home companion , family member , go everywhere , roll with the punches pet , and/or contribute with his/her talents to a greater good.

these are things considered and chosen for .
 
#120 ·
I think the searching for a breeder thread gets really old. I think owners need to decide what is important to them. I am on my 4th GSD and I am quite sure none of my breeders would be approved of on this board. My last dog came from to Sch III titled national competitors and was the 4th generation of the breeding program. It does not much matter to me that the breeder is not approved of by this board. I am happy with my dog. I probably will never come on here and ask for help selecting a breeder.

To me the important criteria are if something happens will the breeder take the dog back and care for it-all of my breeders would do this. And is the female special to them-and do you trust the breeder-just a gut feeling you get by meeting them
 
#121 ·
I think the searching for a breeder thread gets really old. I think owners need to decide what is important to them. I am on my 4th GSD and I am quite sure none of my breeders would be approved of on this board. My last dog came from to Sch III titled national competitors and was the 4th generation of the breeding program. It does not much matter to me that the breeder is not approved of by this board. I am happy with my dog. I probably will never come on here and ask for help selecting a breeder.

To me the important criteria are if something happens will the breeder take the dog back and care for it-all of my breeders would do this. And is the female special to them-and do you trust the breeder-just a gut feeling you get by meeting them
I agree with all of this.
 
#124 ·
I actually don’t mind the threads, problem is, out of the 40000 members we have, the chances of one of them actually dealing with that breeder are slim to none. Sure, some people know them, and some people might know a few dogs that are loosely related to the breeding pair in question, but I’ve very rarely seen it that we have even 2 or 3 people that have dealt with the breeder in question directly or have had a dog from them. And at the end of the day, those should be the only people giving advice on a breeder. Too often I see the “red flagging” of things that the breeder does or doesn’t do, for no reason except that someone knows a breeder that they think is perfect and that’s the kind of breeder this person should be. Well, they’re not, and they might still be producing decent dogs, no one that looks at a webpage can say otherwise.

Then we give advice…see breeder X who’s on the forum. Well…same thing. There aren’t many people on here that have a dog from a forum breeder. They’ve just “communicated” with them enough to think they know what they breed, what their stock is like, and that the dogs are great…without ever seeing any of them. I’ve seen it plenty of times where a forum breeder doesn’t follow our magical flow chart of “should I breed my dog” and yet they get recommended.

Lies said it best, “Do as I say, not as I do.” Happens so often on this forum, it’s almost comical…and it happens in real life as well. I think people really need to just focus on only giving advice if they’ve had firsthand experience with a breeder, and not a few conversations over the internet…people need to only give advice if they’ve seen the dogs work or at least out and about in a bit more stressful situation. Too often we have our resident pedigree jockeys claiming they know what a puppy will turn out like because they’ve dealt with one of the dogs 3 generations back or bred to a brother of a grandsire at one point or another. That’s the kind of “advice” I’ll never understand.
 
#126 ·
IDK martemchik - I think that there's so many different temperament 'types' within the breed, that someone with a vast amount of experience will be able to somewhat predict the outcome of a particular pairing. I've seen my dog being described before, in a totally unrelated context, because of his lines. I think it's very cool, that there are people out there than have witnessed progeny, and then their progeny, and then beyond that - and are willing and able to share that knowledge.
 
#127 ·
But it's completely ridiculous when those people are questioning the knowledge of another (off the board) "reputable" breeder who is actually throwing the pair together, giving the customer their opinion which is based on actually knowing the two dogs being bred (and probably the dogs behind that breeding as well). I'm not saying that a pedigree isn't important, it's just funny when someone thinks they know more about dogs based on a piece of paper than the person that has actually worked the dogs.
 
#128 ·
oh yeah, BB, i also agree. I didn't see my dog here lol because I don't know his lines but I've seen them point out traits and people agreeing that their dog is like that

I just thought it was a funny way to use words, I wasn't agreeing with the post. I don't know one way or the other, only what I read here and it seems like knowing the lines goes a long way towards predicting somewhat what the pup might be
 
#129 ·
Martemchik, when a lawyer is questioning a witness on the stand, they won't ask a question that they don't already know the answer to. No surprises to bite them in the butt, lol. If someone is asking a question here, about a breeding, I think that they're sincere and want an honest opinion. If they already knew the answer, then they'd have already sent their deposit for the puppy.
 
#130 ·
so it's "pedigree jockeys" is it ?

I sure would want to have a breeder very knowledgeable on the combinations that they are putting together.

Why have pedigrees?
Why not celebrate clueless, and random chance .

"questioning the knowledge of another (off the board) "reputable" breeder who is actually throwing the pair together"

Often that is the crux of the problem . The mating pair is thrown together . This could be based upon appearance, scores , titles. How many sites are there that state that they breed only the best GSD that the world has to offer and that is based on breeding only VA's to VA's -- or even in sport , the stampede to the BSP winners .

There is more to it.
 
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