How about those Breeder, Breeding threads. - Page 12 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

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Old 08-27-2014, 12:36 AM   #111 (permalink)
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It was not said by Cliff. The way it was stated it was meant as the standard all the way around, looks, temperament, and drive. So if the standard is there for a purpose, which it should be, how do people determine that that standard isn't really what the standard is? What are people suppose to base it off of? The standard set forth by the kennel club is the same that you see anywhere, so what about the standard needs to be revisited(which was also posted as the next sentence? Where do drives come in with the standard versus work ability? So if a dog doesn't have the drive to do IPO, it doesn't meet the standard? It honestly confused me and had me looking to see if standards are different somewhere? How does one come to the conclusion that the standard is wrong? If breeders are breeding for a standard(which they should) are they breeding them to their own standard or the standard that has been what the GSD is for many years?
imho, max von stepanitz set the standard. anything that deviates from his standard, is not the standard.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:43 AM   #112 (permalink)
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I think your wrong .
Were did I say they were supposed to serve one purpose?

Do you think a GSD being a guide dog makes it a good breeding prospect?

How about just breeding them for that pretty white colour?

This word "VERSATILE" is often used as an excuse for a dog that is lacking or weak.

Versatile means the dog should be suited to numerous potential tasks including IPO.
IPO or a similar venue is a baseline, without it we would be completely lost in the woods and have little to no workable stock.

I just purchased a pup from untitled parents working on a farm doing herding and PP. However both those dogs could achieve IPO titles or be pets or whatever. That is versatility.
Those dogs came from ancestry with multiple titles..


If Im using my dog as a pointer/flusher in Upland Bird hunting. Does that make her breedable? How about a water retriever.
I could train her to quarter, point, flush and retrieve shot birds if I wanted to. Does that make her a good breeding prospect? Maybe she should be bred to a German Shorthair Pointer or a Lab? Might even get some guide dogs out of the litter
Yes -- it was good enough for Bodo Lierberg .

did you really " just purchased a pup from untitled parents working on a farm doing herding and PP. However both those dogs could achieve IPO titles or be pets or whatever. That is versatility.
Those dogs came from ancestry with multiple titles.."
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:50 AM   #113 (permalink)
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a term used on this forum often is, "different flavors of gsd". if all breeders are striving to meet a standard, how can there be different flavors. ie, working line vs show line. of course there will be some variation between gsd, looks, coat color size ect... but should there be a difference between working and show line if all breed to standard? is breeding for certain exaggerated attributes really following the original standard?
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:12 AM   #114 (permalink)
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[/B]

I agree. AND I want to know as much as I can about GSDs so I hang around to learn and I try not to personalize it. At least my WGSL's sire is a TeMar dog ......
Don't worry I will join you at the end of sept. WGSL owners unite. Yep I'm a need.
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:56 AM   #115 (permalink)
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far from it . Working ability must be intentionally chosen for and tested .
I disagree. I had a nothing dog, from nowhere who proved she could work. And she didn't work in a ring. Spent a lifetime as a patrol/protection dog, found a whole mess of 'misplaced' children for neighbors, herded everything from chickens to children to cows just for fun, was trained for narcotics detection and in her spare time raised orphaned bunnies, puppies, kittens, birds and a goat.
Versatility. Fairly certain it was nothing her 'breeder' planned for.

'The early tests were in the form of herding trials. Later for dogs not so employed. a further set of tests were introduced, designed to prove intelligence, confidence, courage, vigor and an eagerness for work.'

Taken from 'The History of the German Shepherd Dog' not a word about bitting a sleeve.

As for this topic, I agree that this forum likes to run people off. I came here for a couple of things, some help finding a breeder, that I never got, and some assistance with my 'fun' puppy mill rescue. I did get a bit of help, and a lot of snark, a little support, for my girl. But mostly anything I post either gets ignored or shot down. Every time I have asked for a breeder recommendation I have been ignored, and whoever said they hadn't heard of any breeder being slammed? should read through the thread I started, not one breeder but two.

It's sadly amusing that we are all supposed to buy the perfect dog, but apparently there are what, half a dozen? breeders who can sell them to us.
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Old 08-27-2014, 06:33 AM   #116 (permalink)
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far from it . Working ability must be intentionally chosen for and tested .
Of corse not all German shepherd dogs can work. That is not what I meant. What I meant is that, regardless of the lines, they should all be able to work before they are bred.
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:41 AM   #117 (permalink)
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Deep down, Andy, you know I really agree with you and share many of the same criticisms but I just don't know that it really matters here. It's a public forum so there is always going to be discussion and people being hypocritical, kennel blind, or giving advice on something they actually know nothing about. Just the nature of a well established public forum. My experience in actually breeding dogs and spending time with breeders is that there is a lot of "do as I say, not as I do" that goes on.

As far as larger scale breeding, I know of one such breeder and used to steer clear because I was concerned of the sheer volume of dogs being produced, but lately when I attend events in this region, often the majority of entries come from this breeder so I cannot accuse them of not walking the walk. I personally would be bankrupt after a single event if I had to fund all of those entries and the training, handling, supplies, travel, etc that goes into showcasing dogs at an event at their scale. It also happens to be a breeder that is actually breeding the 4th, 5th, 6th.... generation of THEIR dogs, not just importing dark sables with foreign titles and "hobby breeding". Not everyone is going to like their type of dog, but for those that do, they produce dogs that will and do succeed in those venues that they say. Nothing more, nothing less.

The no breeding bashing rule has nothing to do with the forum protecting actual breeders, the forum is protecting ITSELF and its members. Believe me, mods are dealing with some crazy crap right now.

ETA: I don't get why PMs make people assume a breeder is bad? I just sent a PM this evening because a thread involving a breeder went south and I actually had some firsthand knowledge and input (personal opinions based on actually observing the person and dog and a breeding experience with said breeder) so I PM'd the OP. Nothing negative intended or implied.
This is a really great post.


I will say that I had gotten some eye rolls from some people when I got my puppy and they were sheerly out of a political nature and had to do with sport- not the dog in general (i.e. nobody would have batted an eye if I hadn't asked for pedigree advice specific to a sport prospect.) But, at the end of the day, the common thread of advice people give is always "talk to people who have dogs from this breeder, meet siblings if it's a repeat, etc" and that was what I went off of.

This thread started as "we should pay more attention to breeders producing pets, since 90% of owners are pet people" to "well, why should pet people care about titles" which has brought back the "do titles matter" discussion, and here we are cyclically beating a dead horse. It's the nature of the 'net... and it is most definitely not GSD specific. I do think some of the breeders that are universally snarked at here are disliked because of specific events that a newb isn't going to know anything about because they either happened quite a long time ago, or happened outside of the board and board rules prevented discussion.
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:58 AM   #118 (permalink)
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far from it . Working ability must be intentionally chosen for and tested .

to which Sabis said "I disagree"

On your other thread many members, myself included , tried to point out to you that (quote Sabis) a dog that is "highly independent/challenging to train and does not thrive in a show/sport setting." , is not what a breeder should be breeding . Dog also described as difficult .
So contrary to what a good GSD should be . Not a candidate for working , and likely not a good pet because a pet owner at the least wants a dog that is happily interactive with them .

GSD shouldn't be bred for pet . GSD should be bred so that the basic temperament and stability of the dog allows the dog to be a very GOOD home companion , family member , go everywhere , roll with the punches pet , and/or contribute with his/her talents to a greater good.

these are things considered and chosen for .
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:02 AM   #119 (permalink)
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I disagree. I had a nothing dog, from nowhere who proved she could work. And she didn't work in a ring. Spent a lifetime as a patrol/protection dog, found a whole mess of 'misplaced' children for neighbors, herded everything from chickens to children to cows just for fun, was trained for narcotics detection and in her spare time raised orphaned bunnies, puppies, kittens, birds and a goat.
Versatility. Fairly certain it was nothing her 'breeder' planned for.

'The early tests were in the form of herding trials. Later for dogs not so employed. a further set of tests were introduced, designed to prove intelligence, confidence, courage, vigor and an eagerness for work.'

Taken from 'The History of the German Shepherd Dog' not a word about bitting a sleeve.

As for this topic, I agree that this forum likes to run people off. I came here for a couple of things, some help finding a breeder, that I never got, and some assistance with my 'fun' puppy mill rescue. I did get a bit of help, and a lot of snark, a little support, for my girl. But mostly anything I post either gets ignored or shot down. Every time I have asked for a breeder recommendation I have been ignored, and whoever said they hadn't heard of any breeder being slammed? should read through the thread I started, not one breeder but two.

It's sadly amusing that we are all supposed to buy the perfect dog, but apparently there are what, half a dozen? breeders who can sell them to us.

If you truly believe this go to a byb pay 400 and be done with it. Im sure you will find a great working dog there.
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:03 AM   #120 (permalink)
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I think the searching for a breeder thread gets really old. I think owners need to decide what is important to them. I am on my 4th GSD and I am quite sure none of my breeders would be approved of on this board. My last dog came from to Sch III titled national competitors and was the 4th generation of the breeding program. It does not much matter to me that the breeder is not approved of by this board. I am happy with my dog. I probably will never come on here and ask for help selecting a breeder.

To me the important criteria are if something happens will the breeder take the dog back and care for it-all of my breeders would do this. And is the female special to them-and do you trust the breeder-just a gut feeling you get by meeting them
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