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Old 08-27-2014, 12:27 AM   #101 (permalink)
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I dont know Lies.

There just seems to be no end to determining who the ethical or reputable breeders are. I saw a thread the other day where one of the breeders on here took issue with another because they were just making money, and had way too many litters.

I took a look at the evil breeders site and yes they produced a lot of dogs.

They imported some and bred some of their own. Working lines all titled, with hips and elbows recorded, numerous other health tests. Some were really nice looking dogs but they are on the negative list for making money and too many litters. Who determines this stuff?

Well I think by now it has just been determined over time on here by a group of people who have known each other for quite awhile. Either online or in person.

Then there is the no breeder bashing. You are allowed to say good things. If someone doesn't like a breeder then they take it to a PM. Once the PMs start flying back and forth then some will assume the breeder in question is lousy. If the breeder is not a member of the board they can't defend that.
Don't have a ready made answer it just doesn't seem right to me.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:30 AM   #102 (permalink)
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I could be jaded....but luckily I'm not! My first GSD was a working line female, not a bad pedigree either (and for those that throw around points and titles, the sire was a SchH3 dog with multiple 100 pt scores, imported by someone who knows her stuff), and she was a total basket case. No confidence, nervy dog, had a bunch of really weird/crazy/neurotic behaviors, terrified of my own husband who is a very kind, gentle person (would poop on the floor if he accidentally startled her). But, alas, I evaluate each individual dog rather than generalizing that WL are nervy basket cases, right?
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:33 AM   #103 (permalink)
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Of course. Now if only more people would apply that to not only WL but SL's as well.

There is always the generalization that one is 'drivey' and one is 'lazy/weak'.

In a perfect world...
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:35 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Deep down, Andy, you know I really agree with you and share many of the same criticisms but I just don't know that it really matters here. It's a public forum so there is always going to be discussion and people being hypocritical, kennel blind, or giving advice on something they actually know nothing about. Just the nature of a well established public forum. My experience in actually breeding dogs and spending time with breeders is that there is a lot of "do as I say, not as I do" that goes on.

As far as larger scale breeding, I know of one such breeder and used to steer clear because I was concerned of the sheer volume of dogs being produced, but lately when I attend events in this region, often the majority of entries come from this breeder so I cannot accuse them of not walking the walk. I personally would be bankrupt after a single event if I had to fund all of those entries and the training, handling, supplies, travel, etc that goes into showcasing dogs at an event at their scale. It also happens to be a breeder that is actually breeding the 4th, 5th, 6th.... generation of THEIR dogs, not just importing dark sables with foreign titles and "hobby breeding". Not everyone is going to like their type of dog, but for those that do, they produce dogs that will and do succeed in those venues that they say. Nothing more, nothing less.

The no breeding bashing rule has nothing to do with the forum protecting actual breeders, the forum is protecting ITSELF and its members. Believe me, mods are dealing with some crazy crap right now.

ETA: I don't get why PMs make people assume a breeder is bad? I just sent a PM this evening because a thread involving a breeder went south and I actually had some firsthand knowledge and input (personal opinions based on actually observing the person and dog and a breeding experience with said breeder) so I PM'd the OP. Nothing negative intended or implied.
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Last edited by Liesje; 08-27-2014 at 12:38 AM.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:39 AM   #105 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
Deep down, Andy, you know I really agree with you and share many of the same criticisms but I just don't know that it really matters here. It's a public forum so there is always going to be discussion and people being hypocritical, kennel blind, or giving advice on something they actually know nothing about. Just the nature of a well established public forum. My experience in actually breeding dogs and spending time with breeders is that there is a lot of "do as I say, not as I do" that goes on.

As far as larger scale breeding, I know of one such breeder and used to steer clear because I was concerned of the sheer volume of dogs being produced, but lately when I attend events in this region, often the majority of entries come from this breeder so I cannot accuse them of not walking the walk. I personally would be bankrupt after a single event if I had to fund all of those entries and the training, handling, supplies, travel, etc that goes into showcasing dogs at an event at their scale. It also happens to be a breeder that is actually breeding the 4th, 5th, 6th.... generation of THEIR dogs, not just importing dark sables with foreign titles and "hobby breeding". Not everyone is going to like their type of dog, but for those that do, they produce dogs that will and do succeed in those venues that they say. Nothing more, nothing less.

The no breeding bashing rule has nothing to do with the forum protecting actual breeders, the forum is protecting ITSELF and its members. Believe me, mods are dealing with some crazy crap right now.
I like this post.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:46 AM   #106 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jack's Dad View Post

There just seems to be no end to determining who the ethical or reputable breeders are. I saw a thread the other day where one of the breeders on here took issue with another because they were just making money, and had way too many litters.

I took a look at the evil breeders site and yes they produced a lot of dogs.

They imported some and bred some of their own. Working lines all titled, with hips and elbows recorded, numerous other health tests. Some were really nice looking dogs but they are on the negative list for making money and too many litters. Who determines this stuff?
People are always going to have their opinions. That's the beauty of a site like this. You get all types of people with all types of experience. It's the internet, so most aren't going to be shy to tell you how they really feel. Take in what you want and ignore what you want to ignore.

I think people need to just educate themselves the best they can, but in the end, get the type of dog that best fits what they find ideal for their situation and goals for the dog.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:47 AM   #107 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jack's Dad View Post
I dont know Lies.

There just seems to be no end to determining who the ethical or reputable breeders are. I saw a thread the other day where one of the breeders on here took issue with another because they were just making money, and had way too many litters.

I took a look at the evil breeders site and yes they produced a lot of dogs.

They imported some and bred some of their own. Working lines all titled, with hips and elbows recorded, numerous other health tests. Some were really nice looking dogs but they are on the negative list for making money and too many litters. Who determines this stuff?

Well I think by now it has just been determined over time on here by a group of people who have known each other for quite awhile. Either online or in person.

Then there is the no breeder bashing. You are allowed to say good things. If someone doesn't like a breeder then they take it to a PM. Once the PMs start flying back and forth then some will assume the breeder in question is lousy. If the breeder is not a member of the board they can't defend that.
Don't have a ready made answer it just doesn't seem right to me.
Pretty sure I seen the thread you're talking about before it was edited. Forum breeder making a thinly veiled jab at another well known and seemingly well liked breeder. It's certainly not all bad, but there's an abundance of back biting and bickering in the GSD world.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:48 AM   #108 (permalink)
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You're wrong. The GSD is not to supposed to serve just one purpose, it's supposed to be versatile.
I think your wrong .
Were did I say they were supposed to serve one purpose?

Do you think a GSD being a guide dog makes it a good breeding prospect?

How about just breeding them for that pretty white colour?

This word "VERSATILE" is often used as an excuse for a dog that is lacking or weak.

Versatile means the dog should be suited to numerous potential tasks including IPO.
IPO or a similar venue is a baseline, without it we would be completely lost in the woods and have little to no workable stock.

I just purchased a pup from untitled parents working on a farm doing herding and PP. However both those dogs could achieve IPO titles or be pets or whatever. That is versatility.
Those dogs came from ancestry with multiple titles..


If Im using my dog as a pointer/flusher in Upland Bird hunting. Does that make her breedable? How about a water retriever.
I could train her to quarter, point, flush and retrieve shot birds if I wanted to. Does that make her a good breeding prospect? Maybe she should be bred to a German Shorthair Pointer or a Lab? Might even get some guide dogs out of the litter
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:20 AM   #109 (permalink)
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I think it's Cliff that posted that? Seems like a Cliff thing. Always a good discussion starter. It is true- be it angulation or whatever "extreme" we see. I don't think it has anything to do with blatantly breeding ultra low-drive, oversized, whatever dogs... dogs who are so far outside the standard that it can't even begin to be an interpretation of the standard...

I think most of the fallacy we see in the breed today is because of Joe Shmoe breeding their "pet" because they're uber protective and really big! The number of badly bred BYB dogs probably outnumbers the carefully bred dogs... just in my own observations, what I see daily. GSD's are really common here, and only a fraction of them are fine (or even marginal) examples of the breed. I think that's a much more prominent (and I mean this in terms of scale and numbers, not severity) issue than breeding for too much angulation, breeding dogs who were pushed to an IPO3 at club level but have crap temperament, etc.

In terms of the "a few people dictate what breeders are acceptable", I LOVE opening the "is this a good breeder?" threads. I open every one of them. The ONLY ones who are universally negatively received are the ones who are breeding dogs so far outside the standard it's not an "interpretation." In fact, there's a number of threads where the general stream of thought is, "well, they do at least health test their dogs, so if you're really interested, go ahead and meet the breeder, the parents, etc." Sure, there's political stuff about breeders in the sport realm, but I've seen some pretty even-keel suggestions when people ask for ASL breeders, WGSL breeders, etc. There's even been, *gasp* good debate on if the standards are relevant, etc. There's a lot of nuances in sport and working dog worlds where they get really in depth into temperament and drives and pedigrees and whether so-and-so produces dogs who are all prey and no defense etc etc. I can't really say I've seen that translate towards "pet" people though. I've even seen a lot of the reputable working and sport people on here say that when a pet owner is looking for a dog, titles aren't necessarily the be-all-end-all.

As others have mentioned... there are a great number of seriously knowledgable people here who no longer post because the political climate has actually made it so that they feel they can't be honest to "pet" people. (Not pet people, "pet" people.)
met with old friend Shaw today and of course discussion was 99.9% GSD . Here is an excerpt from an article soon to appear in Schutzhund USA and Das Schaferhund Magazin Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:31 AM   #110 (permalink)
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I think most people get too caught up in the lines. Can the dog work? Its a working breed. That is what I am interested in. All German Shepherds are working lines as far as I am concerned.
far from it . Working ability must be intentionally chosen for and tested .
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