I have a question that I wanted to ask to see people's take on it. I personally, strongly disagree with buying from a breeder. I feel like every time a dog is bought from a breeder, a shelter dog loses their chance. However; I am open minded and would like to know people's arguments for breeding or buying from breeders. So the real question is:
is there ever a time when it's okay to buy from a breeder? And if so what are the circumstances that. Led you to this?why did you feel like there was no other option?and for the people who disagree with buying from a breeder, what are your reasons? I know how I feel, but at the same time I will try to be non judgemental and to learn from everyone's comments and their reasons. Thank you all for participating.
Went with 7 month old Old English Sheepdog from very good breeder. Awesome dog. Patient, kind, reliable. If kids left gate open, he stayed on the front porch.
Thirty years ago, there were no 'rescues.' You went to the pound and took your chances. Rescues are a more recent invention.
Taught me to be more diligent about bloodlines when getting a GSD. The dog I have now is my second GSD. I waited a loooong time. This guy is my 'heart dog."
In 38 years of marriage, we have always had dogs that we purchased from breeders where we could see the parents. This is because we had children and wanted to stack the deck in favor of a good temperament around them.
Our latest GSD, a 15 month old female, comes from decades/generations of working titled (IPO) GSD's. Her ability to read our minds and assess what is going on around her, yet be calm about most of it, is just stunning. Not saying you cannot get a dog like this from a rescue, but I think it's a bit less likely.
And yes, of course, we feel compassion for the homeless animals, but if you are raising children/grandchildren, their safety has to be a priority. There are never any guarantees, but you do what you can to try to create the best environment for the children and the animals, and for me, this included getting dogs whose parentage was known.
I never felt qualified to judge a rescue/shelter dog's temperament vis a vis being around my children....so I chose to leave that to the professionals who know how to assess temperament.
Not mean, I believe its a liability issue, too many unknowns with both dog and kids, i get that. We invole our kids in training, nothing extensive, but they do need to be able to have some understanding and at times control with our dogs. We bought two 2 gsds and have 2 that were rehomed to us. Next time around our kids will be older, we may look at rescue again.
well that video a week or two ago with the baby taking the food bowl from the gsd is enough to convince me that people are idiots who shouldnt have large powerful dogs around their kids
present company excluded!!
I won't be made to feel guilty about choices I make when it comes to my animals. I don't just wake up in the morning and think, "Gee, I certainly don't have enough to do to keep me busy. Think I'll run out and find another mouth to feed and something else that will consume any loose change I happen to have in my pocket."
I make an informed, educated decision. My dogs each serve a specific purpose. They were sought after and purchased for a reason. The only exception are my 'lap dog(s)'. I like having a small dog. I don't care which breed it is. I always go the rescue/shelter route when I'm seeking a lap dog.
EVERY lap dog I've had for the past 33 years have had some sort of behavioral problem, which was why they were 'thrown away'. So I suppose even then, they are sought after for a specific reason.
I've gone all 3 routes, if ever I were to get another cat (NEVER) I would rescue. Whenever I get another dog, I will always go through a reputable breeder.
There is no *better way*....Rescue vs Breeder.
BOTH are excellent choices when making the decision to add a "living, breathing, depending creature" to one's family.
Breeders are not the reason that there are so many animals in the shelters and rescues.....HUMAN OWNERS are the reason.
OWNERS have chosen to no longer feel the need or responsibility for the lives of their pets.
OWNERS have chosen to neglect, harm or otherwise DISPOSE of their pets.....not the breeders.
Buying from a breeder does not cause the death of a rescue or shelter dog.....the HUMAN/OWNER who placed them in that situation is the reason & cause of their death.
Rescue & Shelters are a wonderful place to find a very needing. unfortunate animal...that deserves a better chance to live life to it's fullest.
Buying from a breeder is also another way to find an exceptional animal to share your life with.
Do what is BEST for YOU. Don't regret your decision.....but more important....don't make the animal "regret" the decision that you made. JMO
I just wanted to add that this sums up right here what I personally mean when I say I wanted to "stack the deck."
Getting a pet might or might not be a moral decision, but how to get that pet almost certainly is. And a moral decision doesn't necessarily mean, "Choice A is more moral than Choice B" - a moral decision is about the reasoning that underlies why Choice A was the decision over Choice B. It means, "Choice A was the better one for Jim for these reasons." Choice B could be a more moral decision for Susan for other reasons, or because she had different answers to the same questions Jim asked himself.
"Stacking the deck" might mean getting what you want, but on a deeper level it might also mean giving that dog the best chance of being successful in your home.
Rescue vs breeder is like the choice to live in a city or the country, to have children or not, whether to adopt those children, whether or not you go to church: It's very personal and no one else's business. Period.
This :thumbup:! Thank you Robin for stating it and katieliz for bringing it back. in the end whatever you decuide be responsible and take care of this companion.
The math disagrees with this idiotic claim. Even one of the biggest breeder hating organizations of all admitted it....probably by accident since their specialty is deception but it's right here for you to watch and listen to:http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?cat=9
If people really wanted to help dogs in shelters, they would do something about the way they are operated. I realize it's easier to just point fingers on forums rather than get off your rear ends and do something about what you constantly complain about.
BTW, the over-population thing has been a myth for years now....but letting go of an effective, albeit dishonest "marketing campaign" is hard for the likes of PETA and HSUS.
correct me if i am wrong but winograds ramblings are not gospel truth to my knowledge
anyone who has worked in shelters knows that they are overburdened and overpopulated
and the animals just keep flowing in
I am actually talking about the video but I realize what is said there just doesn't fit what you want to believe. There are other people who are also familiar with these facts but it was interesting to hear HSUS say it. Sooner or later, you have to spill the truth...at least before it becomes indisputable.
BTW, your sources are not exactly credible. Do they have statistics? Please share.
actually it is a pretty good point because in this small sampling of people which is probably representative of a portion of the population in the us
we have heard 3-4 or more of you state flatly you would never adopt a rescue or shelter dog
that rules out those homes for rescued or shelter pets so yes there is still a huge issue AnimalKind.org: Pet Overpopulation: The Facts
as long as people believe shelter and rescue pets are defective or they want something prettier or nicer or more stable or whatever there will always be too few responsible homes to adopt them
actually it is a pretty good point because in this small sampling of people which is probably representative of a portion of the population in the us
we have heard 3-4 or more of you state flatly you would never adopt a rescue or shelter dog
that rules out those homes for rescued or shelter pets so yes there is still a huge issue AnimalKind.org: Pet Overpopulation: The Facts
as long as people believe shelter and rescue pets are defective or they want something prettier or nicer or more stable or whatever there will always be too few responsible homes to adopt them
I think it depends on how you define your population. You're saying essentially that all current and prospective dog homes are the same population. Of course your points make sense if you're coming from that assumption, which frankly I think is flawed.
Others are saying they're not the same population, and I think that's more accurate. As far as rescues are concerned, some homes don't exist. As far as breeders are concerned, some homes don't exist. For every person who says they would never consider X, there are probably people who would never consider Y.
So what's the problem? I guess I'm really not seeing how your arguments hold water. People will make the choices that work for them, and that will look different for different people.
Originally Posted by my boy diesel actually it is a pretty good point because in this small sampling of people which is probably representative of a portion of the population in the us
we have heard 3-4 or more of you state flatly you would never adopt a rescue or shelter dog
that rules out those homes for rescued or shelter pets so yes there is still a huge issue AnimalKind.org: Pet Overpopulation: The Facts
as long as people believe shelter and rescue pets are defective or they want something prettier or nicer or more stable or whatever there will always be too few responsible homes to adopt them
Guessing, by you or people you know, has nothing to do with statistics. The link you offered leaves out the one very important statistic....the 17 million people looking for pets. This is the way the AR groups operate. They only tell you what they think will persuade you to think just like they do.
The fact remains, there are many more people looking for pets than those being euthanized. Trying to guilt people into buying or “adopting” something they really don’t want is a pretty stupid way to operate. Might work once but the second time people get wiser and a bit more resentful. I think we see that happening now with some of the bigger AR organizations.
As for people saying they would never get a rescue. I’ll have to go back and see what was really said but I personally, have quite a few rescues here at the moment and many more have passed through on their way to new homes. Nope, I do not consider myself a “rescuer”, I run a boarding kennel, I train dogs and I am a dog breeder...and I am also someone who really likes animals. Shocking I know.
I always have been, in spite of what the AR groups would like you to believe about people like me. I also know many more people just like me. They just don’t get on the internet and proclaim themselves to be holier than the rest because they help animals in need. It’s just something they do freely with their time and money.
I will always use dogs from my breedings for SchH or whatever else requires a certain temperament. That doesn’t exclude doing the rest of what I just talked about.
It’s a shame the temperament of many of the rescue people is not a bit different. Or maybe they could be smarter. Dividing people may work to get politicians elected and to manipulate people into agreeing with bad ideas but I have not seen it work out well for animals. So many breeders have the skills, (and facilities), to care for animals properly, yet they are demonized by many rescues and of course, the AR groups. I personally will never work with dog rescuers. Some of the meanest people I have ever encountered. Last incident was when a group of us offered to help and a dog breeder offered to foster a dog in a high kill shelter. The vicious way they attacked that breeder was disgraceful. We simply went around them to get the dog. No one deserves that treatment when they simply step up to help an animal but I see that behavior ALL the time.
It’s a shame the temperament of many of the rescue people is not a bit different. Or maybe they could be smarter. Dividing people may work to get politicians elected and to manipulate people into agreeing with bad ideas but I have not seen it work out well for animals. So many breeders have the skills, (and facilities), to care for animals properly, yet they are demonized by many rescues and of course, the AR groups. I personally will never work with dog rescuers. Some of the meanest people I have ever encountered. Last incident was when a group of us offered to help and a dog breeder offered to foster a dog in a high kill shelter. The vicious way they attacked that breeder was disgraceful. We simply went around them to get the dog. No one deserves that treatment when they simply step up to help an animal but I see that behavior ALL the time.
Point well taken. I've met exactly 3 people offline involved with rescue, with whom I would think about working. Three. And why would I, when I can find pretty much exactly what I'm looking for with a good breeder? Not one of the emotional or moral imperative arguments is going to win me over, nor will the "you find exactly the right dog" argument because I think we've already established that at least some people believe there's more than one right route to the right dog.
I was thinking about this thread yesterday when my husband and I were walking our girl and we were stopped by yet another person who made the assumption we had rescued her. She clearly admired our puppy and commented several times not only on how pretty she is but also how calm and collected for a 16 week old, and how nice it was that her angulation wasn't as pronounced as "those show bred dogs." And I decided, You know what, I want people to know that my pretty girl was the result of careful and ethical breeding. I want people to realize that there are breeders out there producing these lovely dogs with amazing temperaments. And I said, "Actually, her sire and dam are show dogs, and I was specifically looking for a breeder who valued health and structure and temperament." And there was surprise. Because breeders apparently don't love dogs?
Just a reminder "always" and "never" are often words of regret - they're strident words and can lead to embarrasment when circumstances change and you end up doing "never" and the heck with "always." So be careful with those vows!
the overall climate of this thread is that you cannot find a good dog in rescue
a good balanced stable whatever key word you want to use
and that is not the case
what people are saying is that if you go to a shelter it may be a bit of a crap shoot because of not enough evaluating of the dogs
but in a good rescue (and yes there are some) the dog has been evaluated often by living in foster care and there the wheat is separated from the chaff so to speak
you can find safe and reliable stable healthy dogs in rescues
for those who say "i will never get a rescue dog" you ought to open your minds and see what is out there before running to a breeder if all you want is a nice healthy and stable family pet
for those who say "i will never get a rescue dog" you ought to open your minds and see what is out there before running to a breeder if all you want is a nice healthy and stable family pet
To add (because I can't edit): Keep in mind I've never claimed you can't find a good dog in rescue. I didn't say that. I've only said I think I stand the best chance of getting what I want by going through a breeder, and that's what I did. I don't see why I should change my approach in the future, and frankly, I have no plans to consider changing my approach in the future, but I'm very interested in what you might say to convince me otherwise.
watery i cannot persuade you because i cannot visit you in person and take you to a shelter
i would advise to visit and volunteer at shelters before making up your mind one way or another
actually as for your "persuade me' comments i would simply say keep an open mind in all areas of your life
shelter dogs included
watery i cannot persuade you because i cannot visit you in person and take you to a shelter
i would advise to visit and volunteer at shelters before making up your mind one way or another
actually as for your "persuade me' comments i would simply say keep an open mind in all areas of your life
shelter dogs included
I've been to shelters. I don't foresee ever considering a shelter dog. With the whole "never say never" caveat - I just don't ever think I'll do it. And I don't see why I should. I know all the reasons why others do it, but I've never felt moved to act in this particular way and don't predict I will in the future.
So really the question is, Why should I? I don't see why I should. I think all people should do is seek out an ethical source for a pet, and that isn't a single resource.
Edit: I've volunteered with a rescue as well. I'm still not feeling a sense of urgency here for considering a rescue dog.
My dog is a German Shepherd from a breeder of working dogs, donated as a call went out when my son's service dog was poisoned 2011. Instead of 5 year wait for fully trained dog or longer wait for fully trained single coat (Sara was a oversize Dobie. No good for show but great lines and donated with about 50k in training. And his behavioral dog Ernie was a min pin that they threw the CGC fail sister in because she could sense my migraines. Both were fed antifreeze laden food through fence where they were boarded over a weekend)
My son has autism and can be quite startling to dogs. Knowing she is from lines that are not nervous is good. She may have to high a drive in the end and maybe end up a sport dog and guardian and companion. The breeder will take her back anytime. Pay the shipping.
My last personal dog was a mutt, we had chows. In my youth I bred and showed Brittany Spaniels. I was a Persian cat breeer (btw- I trust no one, my babies that didn't pass muster or retirees-were sterilized BEFORE they left. I had a vet working with me)
In Phoenix area, I rescued and rehabbed E-list dogs for 3 years.
But I did not expend energy on broken dogs. Pragmatism says save the best and safety first. Plus better candidates train solid and don't end up rehomed (2 did end up rehomed. Apartment problems- they contacted me by FB and I found previous requesters) I screened carefully over a week.
First visits, play time, walk near other dogs, often some aggressive, tested in the cat room . Tested with my **** minpin. Then came meeting my son and other children. And final phase controlled meet with calm chickens.
Ironically, I would say 50% of the dogs that passed were pit breeds. I wouldn't foster more than 2 at a time. Some were fast because their extreme motivation and desire for socialization. The toughest was longhair doxie I got right after owner turn in and a Kelpie escape artist (who I didnt break of habit). I fostered and re-homed 35 dogs total. Most large. Many purebred. 4 were over 10. 1 had blindness. All at my own expense, adoption fee was: proper sized crate bought, home inspection, insurance, and tags. And 20 bucks when I surrendered the microchip info as transfer of animal. Total fail and surrender back to pound was a huskey mix.. hidden aggression that came out when he was comfortable in week 2. Certain age children and dogs of similar appearance.
My fosters all passed CGC, and basic obedience, were house and crate trained. But I wouldn't go to pound for a service dog unless it was simply a behavior dog like therapy or emotional support. Seeing eye dog? Full autism dog? No way! Some realism is needed on wonder dog being a hidden gem at the pound.
And though I had dog training experience, Melasa's breed is mostly unfamiliar to me in practice and I'm getting stumbling points. If she was badly bred that could've been disastrous.
If Melasa fails at the particular service needed (my one beef was I was supposed to get an older male dog selected by the donation agency. Not a fresh baby girl.) She still is a very good dog in foundation.
Being a mom of a disabled child and a person about to have more young children in the house, the base temperament being predictable is paramount. Reputable breeders also have health guarantees and pre-screened candidates as well as screening on parents. It lowers chance of illness or strange health problem cropping up.
The entire question is not either/ or. The question is, can I find what I want and need at shelter? Personally in my case, not at this time of my life. I am not going to even try.
Every dog I own from this point forward is likely going to be selected at a breeder or referred thru a breeder for specific fit and traits.
I would have been cool with an adult (maybe a retired breeding dog or a placement from a breeder), but my husband wanted the dog to grow up with our cats. This was one of his stipulations for me getting a GSD. I said fine. And honestly, I like having a puppy. I'd go this route again, because I had a great experience with my breeder and I enjoy my puppy.
different strokes for different folks? whatever works for a person? again, what's important is that people are responsible and caring for the dogs they DO get, wherever they get them.
shelter dogs? every day's like Christmas morning, you never know exactly what you're gonna get. there is a way to stack the deck in your favor (behaviorally) even with shelter dogs tho. something called shelter favorites. I have found over and over again, that any dog who is singled out by a shelter worker as worth advocating for, is a pretty darn good dog. like maybe even an exceptional dog.
about "knowing yourself" and absolutes...you tend to know yourself better and better as you get older and older, lolol...
Someone probably already posted this, but I'll go on.
Some people purchase a GSD from a reputable breeder who raises their dogs for IPO. The pups are often IPO prospect. Some people (myself included) actually buy a puppy to raise it for IPO or other dog sports. Looking through a pup's pedigree will give you an idea on how that pup will do in sport. My next GSD will be from Czech working lines. I will raise that pup for IPO. Because I love the sport. And, if I get it from the right place, the puppy will excel in that sport.
Someday, I would love to take home a rescue. I'm actually considering getting my next Parrot from a rescue.
I have had 3 dogs from breeders, while my sister has had 5 from rescues. One of the most critical issues from breeders is how much the dogs get handled. The breeder dogs I have had have been more oriented towards other dogs than they have people, which strongly suggests that they are not being handled enough by humans during their critical weeks before they get to their owners. Unfortunately, this sets a lifelong, unchangeable pattern. I worked like mad to train my puppy, socialize it with other people, and to develop my bond, to no avail. All of my sister's dogs have been more oriented towards people. She always has two at a time, and each dog is more bonded with her than it is with the other dog, though they get along with each other very well. Rescue dogs can usually be taken home on a temporary basis to make sure there is a good fit, so you can make a very informed opinion about the dog's behavior, which you cannot do with a breeder.
Furthermore, breeders are far more likely to behave unethically if you are not happy with your dog. I posted a year ago and made the mistake of not walking away from my deposit. I am in a much worse situation now, with thousands lost instead of a deposit, and heartache to boot. The breeder is well thought of on this forum and has definite friends here who post regularly. A small hobby breeder, however, who does it for the love of it rather than the income is a different "breed," if you will. I would consider going to that kind of person if I could meet many of the dogs to evaluate them.
(Note: I'm not yet prepared to identify my breeder, but I will do so via PM, of course, as soon as I am ready so that others can be fully informed when making their decisions. There are some legal issues I am checking into before I can disclose. I will post again when I am ready in the Breeder area of the forum.)
I have had 3 dogs from breeders, while my sister has had 5 from rescues. One of the most critical issues from breeders is how much the dogs get handled. The breeder dogs I have had have been more oriented towards other dogs than they have people, which strongly suggests that they are not being handled enough by humans during their critical weeks before they get to their owners. Unfortunately, this sets a lifelong, unchangeable pattern. I worked like mad to train my puppy, socialize it with other people, and to develop my bond, to no avail. All of my sister's dogs have been more oriented towards people. She always has two at a time, and each dog is more bonded with her than it is with the other dog, though they get along with each other very well. Rescue dogs can usually be taken home on a temporary basis to make sure there is a good fit, so you can make a very informed opinion about the dog's behavior, which you cannot do with a breeder.
I am sorry you are having trouble with your dog. But I have to disagree with you on this. I have bought all my dogs from breeders and all of them are happy, healthy, love people. 2 are from larger operations, though not commercial, but more than 3 litters a year.
Rescue dogs are bred by someone too. They don't appear fully grown in a pound. Someone bred, bought, raised them.
and I'll add to this as well, I have / had 6 dogs all from breeders, some I never met and purchased a puppy via them. Every single one of them, (and at one point I had 4 at the same time), never bonded to the other dogs over me, they all lived together in my home, not kenneled. I have also had 2 rescues as well, same thing with them.
While it seems you haven't had good experiences with breeder(s), certainly can't lump them all in the same bucket..
Also wanted to add, please do NOT post your breeder's name/kennel name here. The board has a no- breeder bashing policy, so any negatives should be communicated by PM only.
This is to protect the board and its members from legal action (you wouldn't believe the stuff we have to deal with some breeders - constant treath of legal action, constant PM harassment over the most innocent comment made by someone that isn't 2000% gushing about how wonderful they are). Also, the board is not a public vehicle to air out breeder/buyer disagreements - those should also be dealt with privately.
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