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To breed or not to breed, that is the question...

36K views 228 replies 71 participants last post by  ADogCalledQuest 
#1 ·
Hello all,

I have a question that I wanted to ask to see people's take on it. I personally, strongly disagree with buying from a breeder. I feel like every time a dog is bought from a breeder, a shelter dog loses their chance. However; I am open minded and would like to know people's arguments for breeding or buying from breeders. So the real question is:
is there ever a time when it's okay to buy from a breeder? And if so what are the circumstances that. Led you to this?why did you feel like there was no other option?and for the people who disagree with buying from a breeder, what are your reasons? I know how I feel, but at the same time I will try to be non judgemental and to learn from everyone's comments and their reasons. Thank you all for participating.
 
#78 ·
mbd, i have never heard that "myth". do what you can to educate that out of people who would believe that way!!
 
#79 · (Edited)
oh I don't believe that. I know there are many good dogs in rescues. probably most are good.
I think the myth comes from the fact that they are stressed from the conditions and aren't at their best behavior. and also that they weren't trained and maybe had problems created by bad handling and conditions (chained, crated 24/7)
no one is looking their best in jail either.

ETA mbd, i thought you were replying to me. didn't see all those posts
 
#81 ·
Barbie,

There are breeders out there that source pet stores, sell puppies at inns and road sides, and over the internet. 1 person can have 600 dogs, and breed all of them, twice a year. What doesn't sell can be culled, dumped in a shelter, or marked off at the pet store.

A LOT of the general public wants puppies. Shelters have puppies some of the time. This is true of breeders also. But, usually you can find some breeder somewhere with a litter of puppies. And so the general public can get its puppy, and usually they do not have to wait for it. They are not going to go for an adult dog from a shelter, they want a puppy.

And if they cannot find a puppy at a local breeder, they will go to a pet store and buy a pup from there. And the fellow with the 600 dogs gets and order from that store and he breeds another bitch.

It is all supply and demand. If the small breeders all close up shop and say they won't breed again until all the shelters are empty, the fellow with six hundred dogs will hire a few people and keep 12 hundred and produce 2 or 3 times as many puppies.

It will not empty the shelters. It will only change the dynamics of where purebred puppies are produced. Even someone who cuts corners, but has a reasonable number of dogs and even if they are breeding for the pet market, it is better that these people are breeding dogs, better for the breeding dogs, than the dogs that are kept to the USDA standards for dogs.

Because most of those puppy mills that are raided, actually have passed inspections. After a number of years, someone gets sick or falls on hard times, and stuff gets out of control, and they start failing their inspections. But prior to failing, those dogs have no life at all. Living in conditions approved by the USDA is the bare minimum to maintain life. And there are no standards that address treating the critter as a being with a personality, and individual needs.

Dogs that are unsuitable for breeding or come up dry, will be culled, no point spending money feeding bitches that don't produce puppies.

Breeders who are maintaining a number of dogs, dogs that are retired from their program, dogs that wash from breeding, dogs that are currently being bred, dogs that are up and coming and in training, who are able to care properly for them and have a reasonable number of litters per year, actually keep the large scale breeders from getting even larger. And most of them are breeding for some purpose, though some are breeding only for the pet market.

But the pet market wants puppies, and they will get puppies. And the shelter is not where the majority are going to go for a laundry list of reasons. Shelters have even imported puppies from outside the country to provide puppies to people.

The reason for dogs in shelters is because people don't commit to training and providing for a dog's needs when they obtain one from whatever medium. A small breeder who has a limited number of litters and sells to each individual himself, may be able to make better choices where their puppies go, may keep track of them, and may take them back if the need arises. Someone with 600 bitches isn't keeping up with where the dogs go, aren't selling them with any amount of discretion, most of them he is not selling, rather some high school kid is selling the dog in a pet store in a mall. But some dogs from smaller breeders may land in shelters, because a price tag does not guaranty that pup a forever home, neither does a long complicated application, nor does any clause about rehoming and first right of refusal.

The problem with shelters is that people get dogs that they probably shouldn't get, and fail to manage or maintain them properly, or fall into situations where they need to let them go, or they die and fail to leave some avenue for the dogs to be provided for. Some may be within the breeder's ability to help, and some may not. Breeders retire and die.

I think rather than having a philosophy that all dogs should come from shelters. A better philosophy would be to see where your dog is coming from. How are the puppies kept, how are the breeding dogs kept. You can't do this by looking at a website. A website is what a breeder chooses to show the world. Teach people to not buy from pet stores, inns, roadsides, and auctions.

The only way to cut down on the number of dogs kept in truly horrendous conditions is to stop buying sight unseen. When their pups will not sell, they will not breed as many litters and give up some dogs.

And then they will figure out some other way to sell their pups to the public.

The problem is not going to a breeder, because no one walks into these large organizations and comes away with a puppy. These litters are pretty much called for and shipped out without the public ever coming onto the property.

Go to shelters, and go to breeders for pups, stay away from pet stores, etc, and use the internet to narrow your options and then go and visit.
 
#90 ·
...

The reason for dogs in shelters is because people don't commit to training and providing for a dog's needs when they obtain one from whatever medium. A small breeder who has a limited number of litters and sells to each individual himself, may be able to make better choices where their puppies go, may keep track of them, and may take them back if the need arises. Someone with 600 bitches isn't keeping up with where the dogs go, aren't selling them with any amount of discretion, most of them he is not selling, rather some high school kid is selling the dog in a pet store in a mall. But some dogs from smaller breeders may land in shelters, because a price tag does not guaranty that pup a forever home, neither does a long complicated application, nor does any clause about rehoming and first right of refusal.

The problem with shelters is that people get dogs that they probably shouldn't get, and fail to manage or maintain them properly, or fall into situations where they need to let them go, or they die and fail to leave some avenue for the dogs to be provided for. Some may be within the breeder's ability to help, and some may not. Breeders retire and die.

...
lol this never happens when people buy dogs though!

I think I was clear. I am sorry that you did not understand my post. So I cut out some so it will be a little more clear.
 
#87 ·
I would add: I'm also tired of frequent insinuations that people involved in rescue are mean/crazy/hoarders. I'm not talking about this thread, but it's been a running theme in other threads.
oh thank you for mentioning that
i am disturbed too at all those comments about crazies and what not in rescue
simply more myths to try to dispel!!

yes i am sure there are some but then again theres tons of breeders with the same issues!!! rescue does not hold the market on nut jobs and hoarders!!
 
#94 ·
OP said "it's just a forum, take it easy, no one is telling you you can't buy from a breeder or is judging you or shaming you. I simply stated my own opinion, and so are others even if we don't agree. And to the person who said this forum was cathartic for me, it really wasn't my intention at all. This is apples to oranges with my dog dying. I was just trying to create a conversation. And by the way, my next dog. If I decide to get one, will not be from a breeder I can assure you "

well that would have been my post .

so this thread is about breeder hostility?

The title to breed or not to breed, that is the question....
would lead one to think that someone was wondering if they should be breeding their dog .
 
#95 ·
I'm looking at breeding in the same light as any other industry. Because it is an industry, and the shelters are an off-shoot of that industry. It's no different than anything else: you'll get what you support. So if everything you buy is made overseas, then you're slowly killing off our manufacturing industry. If you support the horrible puppy mills, then they'll keep pumping out puppies. If you get a pet without making any kind of commitment, and dump it, then you're keeping the shelters busy and they continue. I don't see the connection of: a breeder puppy means a shelter dog dies, because those 2 things are distinctly different. A person will 'shop' for what they want, and what they're looking for will determine where they look.
 
#96 ·
There are people like me that like specific breeds for specific reasons, this applies to my selection and purchase of horses as well. I want the breed I select to have the qualities that are the reason I selected it in the first place, if people are guilted into only rescuing from shelters than the breeds themselves will suffer severely, the dogs representing the breed will be randomly bred dogs that come from God awful back yard breeders who think AKC papers are a badge of honor and the only criteria needed to breed, I want both my dogs and horses to express the qualities that several generations of quality individuals produce. I have had and still have rescues of breeds from shelters, but they are not the epitome of the breed and should not be viewed as such, or the only way to obtain a breed, I need my purebred dogs AND horses, to be what they were selectively bred to me, that's just my opinion.
 
#97 ·
i dont even mind that people prefer a breeder dog but when they sit and run down rescued and shelter dogs without even having adopted or owned one it makes their argument pretty invalid :shrug:

the dogs representing the breed will be randomly bred dogs that come from God awful back yard breeders who think AKC papers are a badge of honor and the only criteria needed to breed,
proves my point perfectly
 
#101 ·
i dont even mind that people prefer a breeder dog but when they sit and run down rescued and shelter dogs without even having adopted or owned one it makes their argument pretty invalid :shrug:


proves my point perfectly
I understand what you're saying - don't paint with a broad brush and don't knock it 'til you've tried it - but it does seem logical to infer that when careful producers stop producing, the haphazard producers fill the market. I don't know whose post that was, because you didn't leave the tags there, but I think that was the point that poster was making if I recall correctly from upthread.

I'm not running down rescued or sheltered dogs - they're no less deserving than any other dog. That post just doesn't seem too far off the mark to me when I think through what the likely unintended consequences would be.
 
#98 ·
Posted something similar a while back but if I were to adopt a GSD from a reputable rescue I would ask my reputable breeder to assist. Is it rude or a inconvenience, possibly and probably, but think most with a passion for this breed just want the right dog with the right owners. Be it their dogs or a rescue. I don't think a reputable breeder is clamoring for my $. They have plenty of buyers and waiting lists. Besides, who better to see a nice dog then a great breeder!
 
#99 · (Edited)
There is no real question or conversation to be had.
Go to the shelter, obtain a mutt or "pure"bred GSD of likely byb origins and be happy. The ByB still sells his junk, the shelter still gets that junk second hand or the progeny of that junk. Then they can post a sad story on their adoption page blaming environmental experience for genetic weakness. "He is afraid of men because he was probably beaten by a man.." if I had a dime for everytime I heard that line.

Most importantly the breeders producing quality sell out usually before the litter hits the ground because there are still people out there that care about quality.
 
#115 ·
"He is afraid of men because he was probably beaten by a man.." if I had a dime for everytime I heard that line.

I cringe when I hear that line. Not every dog that cowers has been beaten! I think some ppl just love to feel bad for their dogs and even the speculation is fun.

But guess what? The reasons why your dog cowers are so insignificant at this point. You have the dog now, so just work on making it feel comfortable in it's own skin and environment!



Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#100 ·
My 2 GSDs that I adopted as adults came from private individuals that needed to rehome their dogs. I think in the future I'll continue with this practice, since many people are thrown into this scenario for various reasons, and it's always very sad for them. I don't believe that GSDs are good candidates for the shelter environment, and that it's too easy for them to fail the adoptability tests, even though they're great dogs in their own right. I think people should be more concerned about their own actions than what other people are doing. Unless it's a huge issue, like running a crack house next door...
 
#102 ·
the other point i have tried to make is
how many of you bought a dog then it had megaesophagus? hip dysplasia? elbow dysplasia?
allergies? pancreatic insufficiency? other digestive woes?

plenty of you have! i read about it all on the health section here

how many others purchased a dog from a good breeder then the dog had behavioral issues? again all this can be found on the temperament forum section

so when people say 'i'm gonna buy a dog because i wanna stack the odds in my favor' but they have never even been to a shelter to view a dog or visited a rescue to see their dogs it seems like people are just missing a huge piece here in their arguments
you could have gotten the same dog from a rescue or shelter

and in fact if the dog is juvenile or young adult or adult you can actually see what you are getting
with a puppy you cannot and its even more of a crap shoot

in reality you cannot guarantee you wont have hip or elbow or stomach or even temperament issues just by visiting a breeder
now if that breeder had other dogs from the same parents that have grown up and been fine and you could view that and judge from that it might be different
 
#103 ·
the other point i have tried to make is
how many of you bought a dog then it had megaesophagus? hip dysplasia? elbow dysplasia?
allergies? pancreatic insufficiency? other digestive woes?

plenty of you have! i read about it all on the health section here

how many others purchased a dog from a good breeder then the dog had behavioral issues? again all this can be found on the temperament forum section

so when people say 'i'm gonna buy a dog because i wanna stack the odds in my favor' but they have never even been to a shelter to view a dog or visited a rescue to see their dogs it seems like people are just missing a huge piece here in their arguments
you could have gotten the same dog from a rescue or shelter

and in fact if the dog is juvenile or young adult or adult you can actually see what you are getting
with a puppy you cannot and its even more of a crap shoot

in reality you cannot guarantee you wont have hip or elbow or stomach or even temperament issues just by visiting a breeder
now if that breeder had other dogs from the same parents that have grown up and been fine and you could view that and judge from that it might be different
Okay...but if you understand basic probability and sampling (actually, even if you don't), you can start to see how you can use knowns vs unknowns to stack the deck. What can be known and what can't be depends on situation and on what matters to you - what cards you personally wish to have in your hand.

NOTHING is a guarantee, and you won't find anyone debating that point. You can have a great dog or a nightmare from any kind of source.

So I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here? Nobody is trying to say that a shelter dog is guaranteed to have problems and a breeder dog is guaranteed not to. People just look at the risks they're okay with versus the ones they're not, and they pick their poison. That's it. :)
 
#110 ·
isn't that my problem though? I thought the goal is to make sure there's no more unwanted pups and vasectomy accomplishes that. I understand thst all the behavioral issues remain and I'm ok with dealing with them that's why I'm so intent on keeping my dogs unaltered.
 
#112 ·
I dont think there is an definitive answer to this question. I have had three rescues and one BYB whose grandmother was sold w/ the agreement that she not be bred but she was. I love my four shepherd ,god knows some may not consider them real GSDs but Ive seen enough commonality in them to say they have many breed characteristics. However I want a GSD w/ some genetic obedience who could do therapy work or perhaps be a service dog for me. I want to meet their parents hear from other folks who have dogs from that line.Ill be honest Im not a great trainer,I need to work on that but Id like some tangible evidence of what the dogs genetic or hereditary(MSP) make up looks like. Can I get a great dog from rescue who meets these qualifications ?" Yes I can and hopefully I will again have a rescue whether its a GSD,Lab or a Corgi. I have a picture of what I want in my next dog where that dog comes from that picture isnt filled in yet.Neither source is wrong its a personal choice.
 
#113 ·
Is it a hypocrisy to go in to a shelter to "safe a life" "rescue" which is a loaded word , and insist on it being a GSD or appearing to resemble one as much as possible.

If you want a great pet/companion why not choose the first best suited dog .

Chances are the GSD at the shelter quote
"I have had and still have rescues of breeds from shelters, but they are not the epitome of the breed and should not be viewed as such"

They are good and deserving souls for sure .

Over the years on this forum many newbies have come on to crow about the "gsd" that they just got from a shelter .
There is an excitement , like beating the system , and getting a $$$$ dog for $$. Don't need to go to a breeder .

And then they ask if it is a purebred or how much of a gsd is it? Maybe some friend questioned the looks or size or coat or color.

When gently told by the forum ,that the pup may be a mix , or cross bred , you can almost feel the deflation, the air going out of the tire.

Either you like the dog , for what it is , or you do not, and if you do not then don't make a pact to adopt the dog .
 
#123 ·
Is it a hypocrisy to go in to a shelter to "safe a life" "rescue" which is a loaded word , and insist on it being a GSD or appearing to resemble one as much as possible.

If you want a great pet/companion why not choose the first best suited dog .

Chances are the GSD at the shelter quote
"I have had and still have rescues of breeds from shelters, but they are not the epitome of the breed and should not be viewed as such"

They are good and deserving souls for sure .

Over the years on this forum many newbies have come on to crow about the "gsd" that they just got from a shelter .
There is an excitement , like beating the system , and getting a $$$$ dog for $$. Don't need to go to a breeder .

And then they ask if it is a purebred or how much of a gsd is it? Maybe some friend questioned the looks or size or coat or color.

When gently told by the forum ,that the pup may be a mix , or cross bred , you can almost feel the deflation, the air going out of the tire.

Either you like the dog , for what it is , or you do not, and if you do not then don't make a pact to adopt the dog .
Also this is a really good post and I agree completely.
 
#117 ·
I think I mistakenly titled this post as one person mentioned. The true title of this thread should have been to buy from breeders or not to buy. Thanks :)
So for fun - because I think this would be fun - I have a question.

Let's take it as a premise that if Anthony Jones gets a dog, he will buy the dog. Either he buys the dog from a breeder, or he will not get a dog at all.

Is Anthony Jones still killing a shelter dog with his choice? Should he not have any dog at all because he is not willing to rescue one?
 
#116 ·
some dogs just have a bad set of nerves .
Recognizing the problem goes toward being able to solve the problem.
To pity-party , "he's been abused" , does nothing , except maybe prolonging the problem , or making the person feel nobler for coming to the aide , while enabling the dog to remain stuck in this state.
 
#120 ·
Exactly , that is why I said "rescue" is a loaded word, emotionally loaded to make you feel nobler, superior .

It makes the dog somehow indepted .

Adoption , as wording though , puts the responsibility , with no expectations , on the person who has taken the dog in , to guide it through life .

And yes the worse the real or created back story the easier the manipulation .

Dogs with a miserable background should be given the best opportunity to become as normal as they can be , not coddled and kept in that state. No one else needs to know so that any other person the dog meets greets and deals with the dog honestly, "in the moment" of its being , not with extraneous emotions which charge the dog .
Normal creates normal.
No more wet puppies or kitty cats with background lyrics from In the Arms of an Angel , as much as I love the song , as much as I love Sarah McLachlan as an artist .
 
#125 ·
I want to show dogs, so obviously getting a dog from a shelter won't work for me. For the last 35 years, I've bought dogs (Sheltie, Doberman, Yorkie, Italian Greyhound, GSD) from people who show dogs. It's what I prefer.

That said, I have had 3 Italian Greyhounds that were not purchased from a breeder. One was a puppy mill rescue, adopted from the Italian Greyhound Club of America Rescue. The other two were handed over to me by a local puppy miller. One was 2 years old, and one was 7 years old.

I was a foster home for a 14 year old Doberman that was on her way to a shelter, when her family went through a divorce. Well, I started out as a foster home for her. One look at the sweet old girl, and she was mine.

I took a lot of flak from people when I bought my Siamese cat from a breeder that shows her cats. Yes, I know there are a zillion cats that need homes. That's not what I want. I wanted a modern show Siamese, and that's what I got.

I think rescued/rehomed/adopted dogs are great, if that is what you are wanting to get. I've had them. Actually, I still have one of the IGs, and she's a GREAT dog. BUT, guilting people when they want to buy a well bred dog, instead of getting a shelter dog, just ticks me off. I do tell people to look into rescue, if they ask me about getting a dog, but ultimately it's their dog. Their choice.
 
#126 ·
Everything I went through with my female GSD that we had to put down at 4.5 years old, I prefer a reputable breeder. I learned the hard way. Very expensive lesson learned. Health is a major concern for me along with temperament. Plus, I wouldn't know where to start on finding a rescue. I also have young children, makes it even more tough from what I've heard.
 
#127 ·
jmoore did you rescue or purchase your female?

as for young kids rescuing makes more sense actually since you can tell what kind of dog it is and not have to wait for a puppy to grow up to figure out what it is

a young adult or adult that has lived with children would be my preference since a puppy is a biting machine until at least 6 mos. and your kids will be the bitees

people somehow think getting a puppy is 'safer' but the reverse is true - for young kids a stable adult would be a better choice

as for finding that young adult or adult that is good with kids you just ask the rescue
usually they have one in foster with kids or a back history on the dogs that come there
 
#128 ·
Maybe some of this has to do with location, but I find this not to be the case at all.

Many shelters and rescues will not home any GSD in a home with small children.

Furthermore, you have to ask questions, like "How long has the dog been fostered." Because dogs do not necessarily show their true colors until they get settled. This means once the dog has been in the foster home for a month or several months, they become settled enough to display some behaviors that they have acquired. If the dog was rescued 3 weeks ago and had not chewed up a visiting niece on the third or fourth day, it could be deemed good with kids. Which might or might not be true.

If you have small kids, getting a puppy does actually make sense.

They are NOT all biting machines until they are 6 months old. I have 3 four month old puppies right now and they are NOT biting machines and are even more careful with my nieces. The nieces have more trouble with their toenails than there teeth. It depends on the puppy. And you can quickly teach a puppy not to bite.

For someone with small children, I would suggest a puppy over an adult dog. Mostly because people are simply not honest. They want rid of the dog. They will say whatever they think to make you take it. Raised with kids -- yeah great selling gimmick. The thing is, even if that is true, how do you know it wasn't dumped because it had a problem with the kid, and who knows what the kid or kids might have done to the dog while they were raising it.

If I had kids, I would want to be in charge of the interaction my dog had with kids from the beginning. I am not saying there aren't great rescues with good fostering programs out there. But I wouldn't risk a small child on my ability to find one.
 
#138 ·
not every rescue out there are liars
wow
this is what we keep saying because of the myths perpetuated here and your post is a good example of those myths


so what people are you referring to?
Actually, I said people are dishonest.

People are breeders, rescuers, shelter workers, people wanting to purchase a particular dog, people desperate to find a home for a particular dog, people dropping their dog at a shelter or rescue, and so forth.

Yes, some people realize that being honest about the dog and maybe losing a home for the dog is much better than putting the dog in a bad situation, but that's not everyone. People wanting dogs want them so bad that they are willing to overlook most of the cautions that the other guy is throwing up, and people who want to get a dog rehomed are often willing to overlook some of the signs a do might be showing to suggest that they are really uncomfortable in some situations.

Not all people are dishonest, but frankly, I believe that it makes more sense to go with a puppy if you have small children than to go the rescue route. With a puppy, if you do get one with the wrong temperament for your situation, you have a chance to rehome the pup before it ends badly. With an adult dog how you find out that the dog is not suited for your family might just be serious, and some things you can't take back.
 
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