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To breed or not to breed, that is the question...

36K views 228 replies 71 participants last post by  ADogCalledQuest 
#1 ·
Hello all,

I have a question that I wanted to ask to see people's take on it. I personally, strongly disagree with buying from a breeder. I feel like every time a dog is bought from a breeder, a shelter dog loses their chance. However; I am open minded and would like to know people's arguments for breeding or buying from breeders. So the real question is:
is there ever a time when it's okay to buy from a breeder? And if so what are the circumstances that. Led you to this?why did you feel like there was no other option?and for the people who disagree with buying from a breeder, what are your reasons? I know how I feel, but at the same time I will try to be non judgemental and to learn from everyone's comments and their reasons. Thank you all for participating.
 
#42 · (Edited)
nice point in bold. yeah, the guilt trips are annoying. it makes the rescue movement lose credibility when they resort to this kind of stuff.


ETA though that point only works for people thst wouldn't adopt if there were no breeders. if a person would've adopted if there were no breeders then there's logic in it. but i don't agree with these tactics. I didn't put any dogs in the shelter. I don't owe it to pick up other people's slack. I do feel bad for the dogs but this is never ending. more dogs keep turning up. I can see myself helping out if there was an end in sight. there's not. something needs to be changed.
 
#43 ·
Of those a small percentage ended up being able to do the job.
but how many purebreds from breeders wash out?
i mean we could go on all day but truth is many shelters dogs do make wonderful pets and also working dogs
my response anyway was towards people who believe you have to buy a dog to make it a bomb or drug dog and that is not the case
 
#84 · (Edited)
Scent detection is one thing. Bite dog is another ball game. A strong bite dog is a rare thing and the best breeders in the country criss cross the country and the world chasing the right genetics
 
#44 ·
I have had rescue dogs and I've had dogs from breeders. Each one I got for a reason. I don't hold it against anyone who chooses to do either.

I don't feel guilty about buying from a breeder, I'm looking for something specific, I'm looking for healthy solid backgrounds. To each his own:)
 
#45 ·
If I opt not to get a dog at all, does that mean a shelter dog dies as well? That's why that phrase is a little skewed. Getting a dog from a breeder,doesn't mean that the spot in my home now can't be filled by a shelter dog. That spot was never going to be available for a shelter dog. *shrug* Sorry, but that's the truth. I'm not bothered by other people's perceptions and ideologies. I have to make the best decision for me and my household.
 
#46 ·
My opinion on the "what about all the dogs in a shelter, no one should buy from breeders, etc, etc, etc..."

There aren't so many dogs in shelters because people are buying from breeders. There are so many dogs in shelters because people in our society have lost the ability to care for animals throughout changes in their life or the dogs and have not educated themselves on what it takes to raise one. They don't think about the money it costs to care for a dog, they don't consider vet bills, or food bills, etc. and they are uneducated on dogs and their behavior. You have people giving them up because they are too old, they are sick, they are big, they are small, they moved, had babies, their kid poked the dog and it growled, etc. THAT is why there are dogs in shelters and that's why they are put down so often. The blame cannot be put on the breeders, this is our society that has caused that to happen.
 
#47 ·
Agreed



I believe that the problem with so many dogs in the shelters is mostly what you are saying. I think it's irresponsible owners, people who aren't fit to be dog parents for whatever reason. Also not spaying and neutering, they give the puppies away, the puppies end up with other irresponsible pet owners, and those puppies get dumped and end up in a shelters not always but I would say its 50/50. Also to the person who asked me that poignant question, where do dogs from shelters come from. I think I just explained it above but let's look at "reputable breeders" shall we? A breeder breeds the dogs, and sells them to someone. The person has the dog for a while gets annoyed and doesn't want it anymore. They can return the dog to the breeder for free,they can sell it themselves and make a buck, or if they moved out of state the likelihood of them returning the dog is null so they again, sell it or give it away for free. In every scenario BUT returning the dog to a breeder, the new family could in essence dump the dog in a shelter after the novelty wears off. I do agree that not as much blame should be placed on adopters buyers as it should be placed on the owners, but then... Couldn't they end up being the same people? So therefore the blame is directed correctly? Then again, I don't set out to blame people or force my opinions on people, I am more interested in open dialogue and sharing ideas to reach an understanding. I don't agree with people who set out to shame others.mokay the end :)
 
#48 ·
My first GSD was a rescue. I loved him, but he was a nervy, anxious, fear-biting mess. When his epilepsy escalated and he became too much of a danger to me and the people who lived with me, I had to make the decision to put him down. I knew I wanted another shepherd after him, but dealing with his anxiety and aggression was EXHAUSTING and he wasn't even around for years like some of the fear aggressive dogs other forum members care for.

When I went to get my second GSD, I knew I wanted stable temperament and good health. I tried all kinds of rescues in my area, but I was immediately rejected by every single one because I was in my last year of college and I was going to be in an apartment after I moved out of the shared house. So no matter what GSD I found that may fit into my lifestyle, the rescue refused to adopt to me. Does that mean I don't deserve a GSD? I maybe could have gone the shelter route, but very little is known about their background, health is a crapshoot, and I just went through a year of dealing with a worst case scenario of both, so I felt like I was justifiably concerned about getting a shelter GSD.

Finally, I researched an excellent hobby breeder (UKC registry). They work and health test their dogs. They have extensive information and good contacts with the owners of all the parents and grandparents going four generations back. They had previous customers who I was allowed to call and ask about how their dogs were doing three, five, seven years down the line. They will take back any of their dogs at any point in case anything happens (they were in the process of rehoming a dog when I got there after its owner was diagnosed with cancer). They have even tracked down their own dogs out of shelters and pulled them to find appropriate homes. They are not a big operation. They are more what someone might call a hobby breeder, but they have clear intentions to produce dogs with excellent health, temperament, and nerves.

To say that my dog killed a homeless dog when I bought him is ridiculous to me. A rescue would not adopt to me, and I was not going to adopt from a shelter. If I hadn't found a reputable breeder, I simply would not have gotten a dog. It doesn't matter what dogs are in the shelter, I was not going to adopt them anyways. Maybe much later in my life, I will consider adopting again, but it won't be happening anytime soon, and it certainly was not going to happen at the point that I was looking for a new dog.

It's even more ridiculous to me the notion that Kaiju's breeders have contributed to the shelter population when they have actively tracked down their own dogs that have been given up for whatever reason and pulled them from shelters and used their own resources to find them new homes.

If you truly want to continue saying that, I would suggest learning more about a backyard breeder vs a responsible breeder and clarifying your statement to "backyard breeders contribute to overpopulation".
 
#56 ·
I'll bite.

is there ever a time when it's okay to buy from a breeder?
Yes, anytime you want to, for any reason.

And if so what are the circumstances that. Led you to this?why did you feel like there was no other option?
For myself personally, I wanted the dog I wanted. My husband had his own conditions for being okay with the dog. The result was something very very specific, and going to a breeder was going to stack the deck in favor of us getting that.

Frankly, I think the argument that "every time you buy a shelter dog dies" is just silly. My home wasn't open to ANY dog. It was open to MY dog, and that's it. If I hadn't purchased her, I wouldn't have a dog at all.
 
#60 ·
If someone calls me looking for an adult dog I send them to rescue. However I feel many of the St. Louis area rescues are filled with unadoptable dogs -- severe health or temperament problems. These are the dogs that are causing good healthy dogs to die.
 
#61 ·
If someone calls me looking for an adult dog I send them to rescue. However I feel many of the St. Louis area rescues are filled with unadoptable dogs -- severe health or temperament problems. These are the dogs that are causing good healthy dogs to die.
I have a good friend who is involved in rescue who has said the same: People get very emotionally invested in saving a particular dog (even though said dog has severe behavioral issues), or dogs of breeds in high demand, while perfectly healthy and stable dogs of less desirable breed background are put down.

I agree with my friend that the logic is flawed and that it's much more practical - and safe - to decide that either a dog is safe to adopt out or it isn't, regardless of breed/mix, and then go from there in terms of the specifics of placing it.
 
#62 ·
This is hot topic, and very interesting.

I have bought all the dogs that I have owned as an adult. I feel no guilt in doing so, and I don't like people guilting be by saying that shelter dog died because of it.

A shelter dog died because an irresponsible person brought a dog into the world, sold it to an irresponsible person who did not care for something about it, or thought more of their needs and took it to a shelter or a rescue.

I have never given a up a dog. Even when I spent lots of money and the dog did not work for what I wanted. I get an animal and I have it for it's entire life period. I am not to blame for dogs dying in shelters, any more than a parent is to blame for children in foster care and orphanages because they choose to get get pregnant and raise their own child.

But just because I have chosen to buy my dogs does not mean I abandon those that need homes. I foster for my local rescue, I help the local animal control, and work with clients to fix problems before they give a dog up. My sister and my mom have only ever had rescues. In fact one was a foster GSD of mine. When they are looking for their next dog, I am sure they will go the rescue route again. And I will help them find a perfect match.

And yes. It is possible to find a dog in the shelter that can be a working dog. I have placed one as a patrol dog personally. Search and Rescue Foundation mainly takes shelter dogs and turns them into USAR dogs. It happens. A good friend got a rehomed dog and is working her in Wilderness SAR, when her purchased puppy did not work out. It happens and I am always on the lookout through my rescue for dogs being placed in working homes.

Funny thing being, one if the Lab Rescues I work with hates placing dogs in a working home. They don't feel like dogs should have to work, they deserve to be only pets. Go figure, even though I have seen quite a few cone through their rescue that I could easily train and place in a detection home. They won't do it.

I buy because I wanted to. I wanted something specific. The end. I don't need to justify my reasoning. That's what I wanted to do. And it's no one place to judge that decision.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#63 ·
I'm fine with people judging me for buying a dog. I'm used to it by now - where I am, people default to assuming you rescued and it's considered cool to have rescued your dog. I've actually had people gush over my girl and how cute and sweet she is, then ask where I rescued her from and when I say, "I didn't rescue," all of a sudden they get this look on their face like they just smelled something terrible and they turn away. (Being a perverse human being, I had to hide my amusement at this.)

What I'm not fine with is people subjecting me to their judgment. I assume people judge me every minute of every day for something I did or didn't do, and I can't be bothered with worrying about that. When they inflict their judgment on me and expect me to listen to it because they think it should matter to me, that's when I get annoyed and either mock them inside my head or think and bite back snappy retorts that would just get me in trouble if I uttered them out loud.
 
#64 ·
Well said WateryTart, some people have the idea that if you do not have a rescue you are some kind of pond scum. What I enjoy is after they are done looking down their noses at you they comment on how pretty she is and how well behaved she is. :rolleyes:
 
#65 · (Edited)
I think I can understand where the OP is coming from having just lost an animal , her Sailor, who meant the world to her. He happened to have been adopted from a shelter situation . The combination seemed "meant to be" very beneficial to both .
I think the question is partly cathartic , wondering what to do , should she be ready to open her home - go to a breeder , or go try a shelter adoption.

You can't repeat the experience . Not fair to the new dog who needs to be accepted for his/her unique self .

Sailor was the dog that he was because something went right with his breeding , not because he came from a shelter.
 
#66 · (Edited)
To the OP, this quote resonates with my outlook:

“Saving one dog may not change the world, but surely for that one dog, the world will change forever.”

I have always chosen to adopt and I have never been disappointed.

I also have fostered -and otherwise volunteered - for many local shelters and all-breed rescues. I know from experience that there is no shortage of highly adoptable dogs in municipal shelters/pounds, no-kill shelters and all-breed rescues in this country.

For some reason, many on this forum like to make it seem like the majority of dogs that make it to the adoption floor of shelters/rescues (mutts and purebreds alike) are health and temperament disasters - this is not true.
 
#92 ·
To the OP, this quote resonates with my outlook:

“Saving one dog may not change the world, but surely for that one dog, the world will change forever.”

I have always chosen to adopt and I have never been disappointed.



For some reason, many on this forum like to make it seem like the majority of dogs that make it to the adoption floor of shelters/rescues (mutts and purebreds alike) are health and temperament disasters - this is not true.
Agreed 100%. If in my lifetime my family or I've owned 50 dogs, 49 of them were rescues of some sort. Never had an issue with any of them. You really do get what you put into them.
 
#67 ·
I think people are free to make the choices that best suit their households and their goals, and it's a wonderful thing that we have good options - reputable breeders and reputable rescues.
what everyone here keeps forgetting is that you few on this forum who bothered to join a forum and learn about good breeders are few and far between
the majority of the dog owners in america are pet owners and as such do not feel compelled to buy a $1200 + dog from a reputable breeder

but by all means encourage them to purchase from a breeder which,
translated means any ol breeder that will sell them a dog for under $600
all it means is that bybs will stay in business because rescue dogs are "so horrible' :shrug:
 
#85 ·
I don't encourage anyone to do anything beyond do their research. I assume the people in my life are not idiots and can use their God given intelligence to make discerning choices.

So I stand by my opinion: It is a fortunate thing that we have these freedoms so that we may use our own reasoning to determine what we believe in good faith is the most moral. Aren't we lucky to live in a society in which we have that choice? I think so! :)
 
#69 ·
rescues aren't horrible but all they're doing is making it easy, both mentally and physically, for people to dump their dogs. I know that if there were no shelters and rescues then people would just kill or release their unwanted dogs
i don't know what the answer is but the way things are today nothing will ever change.
more people will get on the rescue bandwagon, more dogs will be saved but nothing is done to stop people from dumping their dogs.
I'm not thinking in terms of not letting people dump but rather not letting people get dogs that easy. maybe licensing with mandatory tests that make sure people know how to deal with and avoid behavior problems, that educate people on health issues (believe it or not the thought of health issues didn't cross my mind when I bought my dog. I just didn't think about it I thought all gsds are the same and there's no problems just training. I'm sure there are more like me), on the commitment it takes, on the fact that dogs grow out of cute puppies, thst it's hard to find a place that accepts dogs and on and on

just so people stop and think about it for a minute. maybe this won't do much but maybe it will. but letting things go on the way they are and then guilt people into rescuing more dogs isn't the way to go.

also, now that so many people are commited to rescue this becomes a lucrative business and many scammers are hopping on. the AR people do all the work for them by getting people to want to adopt, all they need to do is buy dogs and resell.
 
#70 ·
well if someone is gonna dump their dog they are gonna dump it with or without a rescue or shelter there

there is craigslist for starters and then those who drive their dog to the middle of the country and dump it

who is guilting whom into rescuing??
i dont see it
most people rescue because they wanna save a life and they know there are awesome dogs in shelters and rescues :shrug:

and fyi my post said 'rescued dogs' (the dogs themselves) not 'rescues' (the business and people)
 
#71 · (Edited)
I was taking about the slogan 'don't breed and buy when shelter dogs die'

and yes, I know, I did say thst stopping shelters and rescues and not letting people dump isn't the answer. there needs to be a way to stop letting people want to dump. or not let just anyone get animals
continuing the cycle the way it is today isn't working

ETA but as I said, shelters make it not only convenient but also provide mental comfort. if you shoot your dog or let him loose you have an idea what happens. here you can dream that your dog gets adopted before you're out the door

I know there are many good dogs in shelters. I've seen tons of them. I would've rescued if i thought I had a chance of approval and if they budged on neutering
 
#72 ·
what is really the MOST important thing is that EVERY dog, whether rescue or purchased from a breeder (or WHEREVER they have come from), have a safe and secure life, where their needs are met, and where they're loved and cared for by their guardians. the slogan about breed and buy when shelter dogs die, is marketing. pay it no mind, there will always be breeders (of all levels of ethics and integrity), and there will always be rescues. it is up to each and every one of us to take good care of our animals and speak out and stand up for those who aren't cared for properly. and educate the coming generations about responsible pet guardianship.
 
#73 ·
Just for me to say once more so everyone is clear. This post was not meant to shame or force anyone into my opinions. I read some posts where people seem insulted and that they don't want anyone telling them what they can and can't do and that they are going to breed and buy from breeders and to heck with anyone else. Please people, simmer down! Hahah it's just a forum, take it easy, no one is telling you you can't buy from a breeder or is judging you or shaming you. I simply stated my own opinion, and so are others even if we don't agree. And to the person who said this forum was cathartic for me, it really wasn't my intention at all. This is apples to oranges with my dog dying. I was just trying to create a conversation. And by the way, my next dog. If I decide to get one, will not be from a breeder I can assure you , but those of you with your reasons to keep buying from breeders, you can keep on because I think we have all realized on this forum that no matter what anyone does, this problem of pet overpopulation is not going to be solved by one person buying from a breeder vs a rescue...
 
#74 ·
you gotta be ready for all kinds of responses here barbie, lolol...people tend to feel passionately about their own point of view...didn't read the whole thread, i'm sure there were some panties in a twist, lolol...
 
#75 ·
yep. totally agree on all this. it's about the dogs. and hopefully something changes and the dumping goes down. but all these people dumping have kids watching and thinking this is what you do. I believe that people are formed for the most part by age 5. the core personality and values. so parents need to be educated too. it's very hard to shake off childhood stuff. so these kids already subconsciously think dumping dogs is ok. hopefully some change minds later but it's not that easy
i know this is a bad comparison but off the top of my head. a kid growing up in a kkk family will have a rough time reforming to not be a racist
 
#76 ·
people sure can do what they want to but i am tired of seeing the myth that all rescued dogs are bonkers and sick nerve bags
that is just not the case
and not to mention there are many sick dogs from breeders and some that are nerve bags as well even reputable breeders dont hit the jack pot every time
 
#83 · (Edited)
:toasting:I couldn't agree more. There are thousands of awesome rescue dogs happily living good lives, in great homes, because of rescue.

I would add: I'm also tired of frequent insinuations that people involved in rescue are mean/crazy/hoarders. I'm not talking about this thread, but it's been a running theme in other threads.

OP, as a rescuer, I'm grateful when (real) breeders sell pet-quality pups with only limited registration, with contracts requiring the dog to come back to them if rehoming is needed, with training obligations, with microchips leading back to the breeder, and provide serious support...what they produce won't ever end up on a euthanasia list or as the subject an "urgent--dies tomorrow" email in my in-box. I'm glad they produce good dogs and respect the work they do to preserve (what's left of) the gene pool.

I recently had to think about this issue when our rescue was asked to sign onto a petition by an anti-breeder group a few cities over. Many reputable rescues signed it. Some of their ideas are fine -- small licensing fees, microchipping, registration with animal control, instead of a free-for-all. I researched the group who was circulating the petition and saw that they filled up their FB page with "don't buy while others die" rhetoric. I declined to sign. I'd rather work together with the local breed club on education and fundraising events -- they aren't my enemy. AGSRA (funded by breeders, through the AKC) has been good to my rescue, with a grant that helped with vet care for two sweet seniors.

We love many of the well-bred dogs who come through rescue. It's not nearly as rare as people think, either. Many of us who rescue have at least one of those too -- off the top of my head, I know of rescuers with WGSL, ASL, and even a panda. At least, that's true in areas where there are hundreds of GSDs to choose from for very small numbers of foster spots--we see many awesome dogs (including pedigreed dogs--we just rehomed two WGSL dogs whose pedigrees were full of "vom Kirschental").

The idea that rescues make it "safe" to dump GSDs at shelters is utterly wrong. The numbers are pretty grim--rescues can't possibly keep up:

5,000+ GSDs euthanized last year in just 30 shelters whose data were tracked. More GSDs were euthanized than adopted. The data show that GSDs are the #4 most euthanized breed in the USA right now:
Filling the Pit | ASPCA Professional
(scroll down past the pit analysis and look at the tables)
 
#77 ·
by 5 for sure, some things quite a bit before that, lala. so many people do not know or understand this. early childhood development (as well as relationship management), should be compulsory education.
 
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