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Old 06-19-2014, 03:58 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I will have to disagree with not feeling shamed. I get that dogs aren't humans and don't feel emotion quite like we do but I do believe they have some level of understanding. Yes they feed off our reactions to situations. But what about if there were no reactions? Just liek in Mister C's example, if Titan went in the house it was clear he couldn't get outside for some reason. I don't react. I have never reacted. So why the low drooping head or shameful slink? Or how about the upset gestures when they can't go outside and play? or any of those things? There has to be some level of emotion in there.

I mean.. does the dog sit there and go "I've lost my dignity guys, this is it." No but do they resppond when they can't do something they have done for so long and suddenly can't. I am not saying that they should be put down for this, at all, just that for some this is more shameful than other things. Mister C, your dog responded great to a wheel chair, others may not at all. I truly believe it's about each individual dog. jsut as with any other temperament, you can't lump them all together.

and lalachka, you keep saying you humanize your dog in this post and as displayed in others, like the one about spending time with your dogs because you feel bad for them. How do you not think they feel anything when they get older in regards to feeling shameful for not being able to do something (genuine question, not meant with attitude ).
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Old 06-19-2014, 04:18 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I just don't believe they feel shame. I believe they can feel things, I believe that he likes to play, he likes to run, to go out, do certain things. I also believe he dislikes some things.

So yeah, I can feel bad when I think I haven't taken him out long enough because I feel like he needs to spend time with me and outside for his mental health.

I just don't believe he can feel dignified, shameful, guilty and stuff like that.


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Old 06-19-2014, 04:20 PM   #33 (permalink)
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hmm. that's very interesting.
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Old 06-19-2014, 04:25 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lalachka View Post
I'm on my first dog, I haven't had to make decisions and you're right, I wasn't there to see your dog. It's possible that they're ashamed of something.

It sounds unbelievable to me for now but so did many things before.


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Old 06-19-2014, 04:28 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyoung2153 View Post
I will have to disagree with not feeling shamed. I get that dogs aren't humans and don't feel emotion quite like we do but I do believe they have some level of understanding. Yes they feed off our reactions to situations. But what about if there were no reactions? Just liek in Mister C's example, if Titan went in the house it was clear he couldn't get outside for some reason. I don't react. I have never reacted. So why the low drooping head or shameful slink? Or how about the upset gestures when they can't go outside and play? or any of those things? There has to be some level of emotion in there.

I mean.. does the dog sit there and go "I've lost my dignity guys, this is it." No but do they resppond when they can't do something they have done for so long and suddenly can't. I am not saying that they should be put down for this, at all, just that for some this is more shameful than other things. Mister C, your dog responded great to a wheel chair, others may not at all. I truly believe it's about each individual dog. jsut as with any other temperament, you can't lump them all together.

and lalachka, you keep saying you humanize your dog in this post and as displayed in others, like the one about spending time with your dogs because you feel bad for them. How do you not think they feel anything when they get older in regards to feeling shameful for not being able to do something (genuine question, not meant with attitude ).

Here is an interesting article on dog shame/guilt.
Do Dogs Feel Guilty? | The Thoughtful Animal, Scientific American Blog Network

I am not saying dog's don't feel emotion. I think that they do. I am just not so sure that they feel shame/guilt--at least in the same way humans do.

I also agree with you and other posters that dog's are individuals and it can be hard to draw general conclusions.

I was lucky with the wheelchair and Maddie's ready acceptance of it. But she also had a real need and was ready to accept it. She also trusted me absolutely and would do anything I asked of her (e.g. when she was young she had a deep bite wound in her belly that required me to flip her on her back twice a day to clean out the wound).

How do I think they feel when they cannot do something anymore? Sad, depressed, and disappointed come to mind but not a loss of dignity. When Maddie couldn't go down steps anymore to go outside, I helped her down. She would wait for me to lift up her back end and nuzzle me before we went down the 2 steps. I solved that problem for her and she perked up. She came to expect that assistance and showed me some affection for the help. Same with the wheelchair and countless other things that I can think of.

Similar story with my first dog Schmoe who went suddenly blind. She was lost, a bit scared and depressed at first. But she came to accept her blindness very quickly. We couldn't move the furniture and her walk was the exact same path everyday but she handled it with aplomb--and much better than I would do if I went blind.

Interesting subject and I do appreciate the varying viewpoints being expressed here.

All the best,

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Old 06-19-2014, 04:30 PM   #36 (permalink)
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This topic hits close to home as I had to let my beloved dog go at only 4 years of age. I made the decision when he stopped doing the things he loved. The whole illness progressed so quickly, I think to be honest I'm still in shock. It was only a cough. A cough that wouldn't go away. I only got 1 week with him after his diagnosis. The night before I made the decision he went outside and did not want to come in. Just picked a spot in the grass and laid there and would not move. When I brought him into the vet, I had to carry him into the exam room. He didn't want to look at me or be near me and this is a dog that would glue himself to my hip if he could. He just stopped acting like the dog he had been for the almost 4 years I had him...

It's all hard, but at least when they are older you get some time to prepare, when something sudden and horrible happens, it turns the world upside down. If you had told me in January I would not still have my Avery, I would have never believed you...
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Old 06-19-2014, 04:32 PM   #37 (permalink)
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In my opinion, dogs feel every emotion we feel just on a purer (if that is a word? lol) level. I have seen grief, loneliness, fear, anger and yes even shame in my dogs' eyes and displayed in their posture. I believe their reasons for respect vary from ours as well as the motivation for their emotions but I 100% believe they have them and display them.
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Old 06-19-2014, 05:01 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiya View Post
No offense but if your on your first dog I think you will come to learn what some of us have learned over the years.

That's exactly what I said in the post you quoted.

However, it's also very possible that I'm seeing what you're seeing in your dogs and not interpreting it the way you would.

I've seen him hang his head, I've seen him prance around looking like he's proud of himself. I just realize that I'm assigning words to his behaviors based on what humans feel when they do similar things.


So if I see him hang his head I don't assume he's shameful. If I see him hold his head high I don't assume he's proud.


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Old 06-19-2014, 05:05 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Why is hanging their head a sign of shame? Who said that just because we hang our heads when we are sad, embarrassed, whatever - then that's why dogs do it too.

Their body language is different than ours. We show out teeth when we are happy, no one thinks a dog showing their teeth is happy.


I don't know if dogs can feel emotions in the way we do. They might look like they do but you really don't know what goes on inside them. Neither do I.

This conversation can go on for days and no one will know the truth.


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Old 06-19-2014, 05:06 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by My2shepherds View Post
In my opinion, dogs feel every emotion we feel just on a purer (if that is a word? lol) level. I have seen grief, loneliness, fear, anger and yes even shame in my dogs' eyes and displayed in their posture. I believe their reasons for respect vary from ours as well as the motivation for their emotions but I 100% believe they have them and display them.

What's a shameful posture for a dog?


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