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What is dignity?

14K views 90 replies 22 participants last post by  Bridget 
#1 ·
I wanted to post this question in the weekly discussion area, but only a moderator can do that. I have a quality of life scale thingy that I look at often these days, and one of the statements is that a dog would not want to live without dignity. But what, in your opinion, is dignity? Clearly, it is difficult to describe, yet we know it when we see it. I would love to hear people's thoughts and give examples too.

The definition that I am beginning to formulate is being a real dog and doing the things that dogs do. And I think a dog can have help/accommodations to do these things, such as help getting outside, without a loss of dignity. But if the help has run its course, then maybe it could be a loss of dignity issue. Please share with me your thoughts about dignity.
 
#44 ·
Perhaps dignity is also a beings spirit. With Clipper I felt a "handing over of the reins" so to speak, in his last days. Perhaps dignity is a learned response over time. Animals and humans learn rules, actions to be used appropriately in different situations, sometimes being told to, sometimes on their own. If you were walking down the street, and someone started making fun of you, you could pass on with no response, you head held high with the dignity not to " lower" yourself to that standard, as example. Is that learned, or is it spirit? Clipper's handing over the reins as I say was a trust built over our years together. He knew he was unable to do some things and trusted and expected that I would be there for him. He had his dignity and spirit.
 
#49 ·
Perhaps dignity is also a beings spirit. With Clipper I felt a "handing over of the reins" so to speak, in his last days. ... Clipper's handing over the reins as I say was a trust built over our years together. He knew he was unable to do some things and trusted and expected that I would be there for him. He had his dignity and spirit.
Fascinating response readaboutdogs. I know exactly what you mean by "handing over the reins". Now that you put that so elegantly into words I can reflect back and see the same thing from my old Maddie. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective.


Like Mister C I eventually had to help with stairs and I'd use a Ruffwear harness. Kramer would stop at the top of the stairs, and I'd pick him up and swing him down so he was flying and would say wheeeeeee! set him down and he'd take off running - so it was fun. He would not have stopped and waited if it had been otherwise - the opposition reflex was strong in him. :)

So I guess some of what we do - if you think of how good nurses/people who do patient care respond - it's really teaching. If I want to teach my dog to get on the counter to eat their supper, they will do it even if it's "wrong," so we can work with our old dogs to teach new behaviors that help them respond well to aging. That will help us see them as dignified, which is really what we are responding to - our perception of their dignity.
Yes, it's teaching JeanKBBMMMAAN. I totally agree. Maddie was also fastidious and never pooped or peed in the house until her health issues made that not a option. My mother was an ICU nurse and then home health care nurse for the elderly. I thought of her often as I helped my old dog adapt to her aging process.
 
#47 ·
I don't believe dogs share the same emotions as people. Things like shame, dignity, pride, they all require that the animal have self awareness. Dogs are not self aware.

As for drugs like Prozac, it changes brain chemistry. It does not affect emotions. And I have never seen it used for depression in dogs like it is with people. It's used for anxiety.


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#69 ·
Chemical release in the brain is what causes all forms of feelings, emotion. Which is why when those are altered the way a person feels is altered. Prozac is not just used for anxiety issues in the field it is used for a number of behavioral problems, not all related to anxiety. If prozac works on the same aspects in dogs as in humans, then it is reasonable to assume the chemical component is similar. Therefor, feelings that are then created should be similar as well.

The difference being, we have the intelligence to comprehend those feelings on a different level. Doesn't mean they aren't still felt with lower intelligence.

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#48 ·
I am so glad that the potty issue has been discussed. I had a very neat, very clean Chow mix. He would hop over places that dogs had pottied, walked around areas that had been cleaned, was meticulous and really grossed out by functions.

But in his last year, his spine was so fused that he started to have some accidents. At first he seemed a little freaked out, and I didn't want him to be unhappy because he was healthy otherwise. So I just used training to reinforce that it was okay to do it. He would have never done it on purpose, and always tried to get outside, but if he had an accident (couldn't feel it - poop just plopped out as he walked) I would laugh, clap, treat (not every time, and eventually stopped), pick up. So we re-framed the issue, he was mostly continent, and when not, he'd eventually look back at it like "pick it up" and then keep on going. The only time it was bad is if he did it while sleeping and then he'd wake up and try to hide it in his blanket. :sick: He had nice, not even that smelly poop which helped! My GSD now...oof. But same thing if she has an accident due to her GI issues or if she leaks.

Like Mister C I eventually had to help with stairs and I'd use a Ruffwear harness. Kramer would stop at the top of the stairs, and I'd pick him up and swing him down so he was flying and would say wheeeeeee! set him down and he'd take off running - so it was fun. He would not have stopped and waited if it had been otherwise - the opposition reflex was strong in him. :)

So I guess some of what we do - if you think of how good nurses/people who do patient care respond - it's really teaching. If I want to teach my dog to get on the counter to eat their supper, they will do it even if it's "wrong," so we can work with our old dogs to teach new behaviors that help them respond well to aging. That will help us see them as dignified, which is really what we are responding to - our perception of their dignity.
 
#52 ·
I do not want to disrespect your views, differences of opinion are what make this forum interesting, but I do believe dogs can remember... people, places, things and actions... I believe their emotional drive is different from ours but i do believe they experience emotion.. :)
 
#54 · (Edited)
Well to add to the feeling guilty stories.. Titan does that when he gets into the trash and I never see that part until I get past him and through the kitchen since the trash he gets into is in the bathroom on the other side of the house.. no way for me to know about it ahead of time. (P.S. Always my fault with the trash anyways and I have envers colded him for it, I know he does it if I leave the door open, so when I see it, it's a "dang it Whitney!!" thought and I calmly pick it up.)

Normal routine is.. come home, waggy jumping puppy.. bolts out the dog door to wait by his toys (Fetch time is right after I change out of uniform). I always know if he has gone through the trash because I will come home and my waggy jumpy puppy is not.. he's sitting in his bed in the living room, I have to find him, and he has this guilty look on his face and barely wags his tail.. I always callhim over anyways and pet him and he comes with me to the bathroom while I clean the mess (on his own) then we go out and play.

So I'm glad lalachka that you have a dog that doesn't seem to care, but that's just not the case for some of us. I know for a fact that Titan knows he does something wrong and responds to that... not only that but I can't believe that he doesn't remember things. If they didn't remember things, we would have to train them things over and over. Titan wouldn't go check all his normal hiding spots when we play his find it games or even remember me when I come home from work. Just doesn't make sense to me at all. Or maybe I misunderstood your point.
 
#60 ·
My dog remembers and she feels all sorts of emotions. Some of this I can't prove, but that doesn't mean I don't know it to be true.

Jean, I am really interested in your comment about dignity being what we perceive it to be (did I paraphrase correctly?). I am thinking about that concept. That may be what I was looking for with this thread.
 
#61 ·
I would laugh, clap, treat (not every time, and eventually stopped), pick up. So we re-framed the issue, he was mostly continent, and when not, he'd eventually look back at it like "pick it up" and then keep on going.
this makes a huge difference
many dogs especially rescued ones have been trained with not so kind methods including nose rubbing and spankings
those are the ones who react worst it seems and understandably so

if we respond with love and understanding it makes a huge difference to them
i do not think incontinence is the be all and end all of quality of life but its how the dog responds to that incontinence

my inlaws gsd that got dm and had to be put down when they let him go it was largely due to his feelings of shame about being incontinent or whatever you want to call it

basically it was felt his dignity was gone
 
#71 ·
The dog very likely remembers that when the house smells like this, my greatest, wonderful, being gets all kinds of bad feelings going on.

Are they thinking, gee she's going to be mad because I pooped all over the place? Maybe. Maybe it is more she is going to be mad because there is poop all over the place. Who knows. Yes, some dogs will be very worried and upset from there being poop in the house.

My cat was a super clean cat. Constantly cleaning himself. Hairballs, ugh! Nothing like jumping up and running for the phone at night and having hairball all over your bare foot in between your toes, ick!

But when he got really bad, some form of spinal disease, he stopped cleaning himself, that was when I knew. He couldn't walk at all. I had to put him in the litter box and lift him up, and pull him out. But his lack of desire to clean his fur, that was kind of the tip off, that it was definitely time. The vet had told me to bring him back when I was ready, so I took him in the next morning. I really don't think he wanted to live like that. And it was progressively worse and worse. So it was only going down hill.
 
#75 ·
I don't know exactly what goes on in their brains but I can't believe that they have memories. Yeah, they know certain people, places, know how to do certain things but I will never believe that a dog remembered that he peed in the house a few hours ago.

Second and third training session. I guess it depends on how you train. I lure, so the 2nd and third time I'm still luring. By then he knows that when he sees my hand move a certain way - he should sit.

When they offer behaviors that's because they have a reflex that this behavior got them a treat in the past.


My dog does care when he does bad things, he only doesn't care about pooping in the house because I went out of my way to show him that this is OK to do.

But if he chases the cat or gets up after I told him to sit - he def knows he did something that he wasn't supposed to. But 2 mins later it's forgotten. Once he sees that I let it go - he stops trying to kiss up.

I believe that dogs know when they do something they shouldn't've done. I just don't believe that they remember they did something wrong after a minute or two passed.

Once they moved on to something else - the previous incident is forgotten.





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#80 ·
No.....not smell. Our dogs bury bones out in our paddocks. They are not out there sniffing around. They go STRAIGHT to where they buried it EVERY time.....they can't smell it from 200m away.
Yes of cause dogs have memories......I'm surprised you would question this.
 
#84 ·
The author, Jon Katz, whom I love and hate in turn, believes that dogs have no sense of time. He tells about beagles who were only let out of their pen once a year to go hunting, but are well taken care of. He suggests that they really don't know the difference. To me, this is a ridiculous idea. Dogs don't look at clocks, nor do they know whether you are 5 minutes late feeding them or 10 minutes late. But they certainly know if it's been a long time.

As far as consciousness is concerned, I think our dogs are conscious of everything, just at a different level than we are, mostly because of their lack of verbal language. I don't think they have the ability (or the curse perhaps) to "compare." Like for instance, I used to feel guilty if I took one dog out for a romp two days in a row and didn't take another as often. Then I realized that Heidi isn't sitting there saying to herself "WTF, she took Cori yesterday too and I haven't been out since Sunday!" But she knows "never;" if I took Cori all the time and never took her, she would know. It's a lower consciousness to be sure, but they are still conscious.''

I also think, just as some folks project their desire that their dog be a child, that others project a desire that their dog not know much, maybe because it makes life easier in some ways, especially when we lose them. After all, if they don't remember us anyway, then it isn't so sad.

Lalachka, that thing you said about telling your dog it's ok to poop in the house cracked me up! I understand your meaning, but it still struck me kind of funny.
 
#85 ·
Morgan was a proud lady. When she was 11her DM made it so she'd get up to tell me she had to go out to poop but opps, she already was pooping. DM messes up the signals to the brain. She always looked so ashamed she'd pooped in the house.

I didn't let her progress with the DM to the point she couldn't walk. She didn't want to leave me, her mind was still as it has always been, loyal and determined. Her last month was hard for me to see the frustration when her body just wouldn't do what she wanted it to. We made that last month grand doing the things she could still do. She was exhausted all the time but happy (and high, very high)
 
#86 ·
Sabi was my world so this is something I thought long and hard about. As her DM got to the point where she needed help getting around, I listened to stories about carts and slings and diapers. I needed to take a serious look at my dog. She was annoyed at being helped into the car, she was irritated when I offered help if she stumbled. Using the bathroom in my presence was not ok with her, accidents in the house upset her, a diaper would have mortified her. I guess some dogs would be ok with being cared for in that way, she would have been mortally offended. To me, and for my dog, not being independent and strong was a loss of dignity. It was killing me to watch, and she was miserable. I made the decision to stop before it progressed. For her it was the right decision, another dog may require a different one. Know thy dog.
 
#87 ·
Bridget, lol, yeah I know))))) it's funny to me too. Lol potty training undone. Poor thing probably thinks I'm confused.


I just so don't want him to feel bad about it that I almost go overboard with it))))

The thought that he's trying to hold diarrhea bothers me.

Also, what's interesting, somehow he still knows not to go in the house.


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#91 ·
This conversation has been really good for me and clearly I had personal reasons for starting it. I don't agree with everything about dog's awareness, but the idea that we may project our idea of dignity on our dog does resonate with me. I am thinking that a) because we are human we can't help it, and b) it doesn't really matter anyhow; dignity is what it is no matter where it's coming from. The conclusion I have come to, for myself and my dog only, is that when her hips completely give out and she is dragging her back end, that will be when dignity is an issue for us and when "it's time." In other circumstances, I would be open to trying a cart, but for an old dog, no.
 
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