What is a back yard breeder ?????????

[Blitzkrieg1]

Originally Posted by julie87

Now everyone is confused thanks a lot to those that said said good things about BYB.

You are helping produce bad lifters by supporting BYB on this forum. Because people Anywhere in the world can read this... people who dont know any better...Congratulations. Thank you for catching mistake when I said ALL BYB are bad, apperantly some of you are ok with spread of these helpless puppies as long as you get a good deal.

Like I said BYB is random people like u and me who breed their dogs on their own property while not knowing anything about health of litter and no money for the vet, if they had money they would be real breeders. It is VERY expenssive to be a real breeder.

Is anyone here reading this a real breeder and can explain this better? Thanks

I would say a minority of "backyard breeders" are abusive to their dogs..relax the world isnt such a black and white place. As previously stated most ByBs are merely ignorant not malicious in their intent.

German Shepherds are quite capable of living outdoors, breeding outdoors and yes having and raising pups outdoors. Many "big" breeders have outdoor kennels. The dogs being outside does not indicate abuse.

I dont really care were the dog is bred what I care about is:

Titled Parents preferably on site
Hips and Elbows X rayed
Sanitary living conditions
***Pups that appear healthy and have drive***
Registration and pedigree
Written guarentees are nice but if the breeder doesnt want to honor them they arent worth the paper they are written on imo.

I may let one or some of these requirements slide if I know the breeder and know their dogs..of course I would expect to pay less, lol.
People say it over and over again on here, when you actually see the dogs in action you get a very good perspective on what you like and dont like. Also, who you trust and dont trust... The talking stops when the tail gate drops so the saying goes. lol

[Safzola]

Well thank you everyone. I think that covers about everything .......Unless you know different

[selzer]

Originally Posted by spinkamor

What?!

If you think all BYB are "horrible people and abuse dogs" and I deserve to be sworn at for believing otherwise, you're highly misinformed. I am, in no way, condoning or supporting BYB. I do believe that there are an abundance of dogs in shelters, and this world doesn't need more breeders. However, to sweep all BYB together in one category as "horrible abusive people" is widely inaccurate. Some breeders that are considered BYB love the breed, treat them very well, give them necessary veterinary attention, etc. You could call them irresponsible as there are already plenty of unwanted dogs out there, and that they don't "truly know the breed". But to go as far as to call most of them "horrible" and "abusive"? Not necessarily true.

I am going to pick on this statement just a little.

There are enough GSDs out there. There are dogs in shelters, yes. But we do need more breeders. We need more good breeders. Breeders who educate themselves on breeding, genetics, the breed, training, and are willing to go the whole nine yards.

It is economics. Supply and demand. The demand is not for adult dogs, not usually. It is for puppies. Just because someone cannot find a puppy right away, does not mean they will go to a shelter and take home an adult dog. Some might. Others will search harder and perhaps wait for a puppy to be born.

Every day that goes by, the breeders who are out there are getting older. Some of us will give it up, some will retire, some will die. But the demand for those puppies are not diminishing. It goes up and down with the state of the union, at least here in the states. I think that sometimes when times are hard the want for puppies in general goes down a little, and rebounds in that people want a formidable dog as a deterrent. When people are nervous about their jobs, or the future, they do not always want to bring home a puppy, or at least they may not want to pay the going rate.

But, for every 1 person who is having a tough time, there are 9 people out there doing ok. And many of those people want puppies. Perhaps if it was more like 30% unemployment it would be a lot different. Even people who are currently working would be more afraid for their positions, and a lot fewer people would be bringing home a new pup.

The short of it is that if younger people who are students of the breed do not step up to the plate and replace those breeders who are getting out it, for the only reason that there are dogs that are unwanted, demand for puppies will increase and the lowest forms of breeders will increase the number of bitches they breed to supply that demand.

I don't have any concrete data, but there are a number of types of breeders. The top breeders, those who breed for show, for sport, or for working dogs supply only a fraction of the dogs out there. Some are larger, with several bitches, and litters per year, many are hobby-breeders who have just a few and maybe a litter in a year or one litter every few years. Not all of the pups will go to show, or sport, or working homes, the remainder will go to pet homes. Let's say they currently provide 20% of the puppies that are born per year.

The vast majority of breeders, the Middle Breeders fall into the category that love their dogs, but are not a top breeder because they either have no goal -- work, show, sport; or they do not pay attention to one or more of the details, like genetics, staying within the standard, health certificates; or they simply had a litter because they wanted their bitch to have pups once, or because the failed to contain her properly; or many of your other red-flags that I am just not thinking of. The people who want a dog for show or sport or working are not going to these people for a puppy. However, the people who want a pet might get one here and having the pup might bring them to a higher level. Learning about the dog, training the dog, etc. How many people here say, "I got my dog from a BYB, and I love the dog, but the next time..." Evenso, let's say that they hold 50% of the market.

The smallest group of breeders, I will call them the Low-Breeders, are those that have huge puppy farms. They have hundreds of dogs in barely sufficient conditions to insufficient conditions to sustain life. They sell through middlemen, pet stores, or internet sites. And they sell a LOT of puppies. I am just pulling numbers out of the air for ease of explanation because the actual percentages do not matter. What matters is what will happen if no new people become breeders. So, doing the math we are theorizing that they supply 30% of the GSD puppies out there. Again, the elite buyers are not going to go to them. Even the people who would go to a middle breeder are not going to purchase from these breeders unless the internet site masks them sufficiently.

And now with AR and HSUS indoctrinating everyone against the act of breeding dogs no matter what the reason, we have fewer people who would probably make good decisions and do an excellent job, willing to go down that path. And as the breeders who have been doing this since the inception of the breed into the states (ok I am exaggerating a little), are going to their reward, if no one comes in with energy and passion and fills those shoes, the 20% will go down to nil. As people who formerly got dogs from middle-breeders and now want dogs from the top breeders, availability from said breeders will decrease, say to 2%, and some of the people who would buy from these will buy from middle breeders.

Middle breeders are pretty static. These are individuals who can handle 1 - 3 litters in a year. Where one might have a second litter, another will have only one or none. Where one has learned their lesson and got their bitch fixed and is removed from the rolls, another thinks it might be fun to let their girl have a litter of puppies. They will continue to supply 50% of the market. If legislation affecting keeping intact pets becomes wide-spread, and if the demonizing of breeders knocks off some of these too this number will go down.

But the number of puppies produced will not. The low breeders will pick up the slack. I really do not know what percentage of the market share these people hold, but I would much rather see people getting pets from people who fail in one or a few ways when working their way around the what-to-look-for-in-a-breeder chart, than to have these scoundrels producing higher percentages of the breed.

The more of these dogs out there, the more the reputation of the GSD, in both health and temperament will go down. While it is nature, and a pup might defy the odds and come out of situations like this relatively unscathed, the chances of serious health and temperament problems from dogs kept in such conditions, and bred over and over, without any consideration to the closeness of the lines, or what ailments are present in the lines, the more will be affected.

I do not think that people should aspire to be a middle breeder, but I think that people should strive to become a top breeder, and I think that we should not make statements like what the world does not need is another breeder. We need good breeders. We need breeders who are willing to learn by doing.

[Debbieg]

Great post Sue!

[Safzola]

Originally Posted by Debbieg

Great post Sue!

Here here

[TxFig]

Originally Posted by shepherdmom

and most importantly we need to be careful not to label someone a BYB just because they breed in their yard. Hobby breeders know their lines, have health certificates do temperament testing and know what they are doing. They may only breed a litter every few years. Their dogs are usually spoken for before the litter is even born and they are most times not as expensive as the big breeders.

I'm glad SOMEONE used this term --> Hobby Breeder.

It kind of illustrates a soap box issue for me; I detest the term "Backyard breeder". The reason being that it is a very, VERY poor description for what is being described. I really wish people (us) would quit using it.

I'm fairly new to the GSD world - but I have spent years (25+) in the Retriever world. On the retriever forums I used to frequent, it has become common to use 3 different terms to describe what kind of breeder a person is:

Professional - this is basically someone who makes their living by training, showing, trialing (retrievers), & breeding dogs. Even though they are "making money" off of the breeding aspect, these people overwhelmingly "do the right things" - no doubt because it makes the other aspects of their professional life better if they have quality dogs to work with .

Hobby - this is someone who is doing all the same things as a professional, but only with their personally owned dogs. IOW, they don't have clients providing them an income. People in this category who breed are also "doing the right things". When they do breed, IF a litter makes money - if you count the cost of all the things they do to get their dog "breedable", it won't cover the expenses.


Trash breeder - yes, this is a very harsh term - and it's harsh on purpose. These are the people who are breeding their dogs for nefarious reasons such as
"I want my kids to see the miracle of life"
"I can make a few bucks"
"I think my dog is so cute"
These are the puppies that get sold in newspapers, a Wal-Mart parking lot, or pet stores. Later on, these are the dogs that end up in a shelter.



And for the record, I do not subscribe to the idea that "there are already plenty of breeders out there". That is lumping all breeders into a single category - which is wrong on its face.
There are already too many Trash breeders.
There are not enough breeders who are "doing the right thing".

[Cunningham GSDs]

Originally Posted by zivagirl

Bottom line, breeders have the unfortunate tendency towards being mere humans. Some are better than others. Some of your 'top of the line ' breeders, whole not abusing or technically neglecting their dogs, the fact is, they show not because they love their breed, but because it means another notch on their belt and a higher askin g price for their litters. My ideal breeder must love her dogs FIRST, breed healthy stock, provide a happy living environment.

Well said, and I agree. All people who breed their dogs in the backyard are not bad and all breeders who have fancy facilities and breed 250 litters a year are not good!!!! The love of the breed, and attempt to improve it, the knowledge about the breed and the standard as well as faults, the love of their own dogs....not just a number with a title on him that lives in kennel number 32 at the fancy facility. Each breeder must be judged individually, not placed in a category. I would much rather buy a dog based on what I know about the breed and my own evaluation of the individual and the health of the bloodline than one that is judged by others based on preconceived ideas that are not based in fact.

[WolfieWolf]

We got our first GSD puppy, Baron, 25 years ago from a "BYB." They had a beautiful female GSD and wanted to breed her. They searched very diligently for a stud with the right lines and temperment, and were very diligent with the puppies -- socializing them etc. Baron was a beautiful and exceptional dog, intelligent and had a great temperment. This was the only time those people bred their girl, so I don't know if they were BYBs or Hobby Breeders, but I sure would do it again.

[Debbieg]

Originally Posted by WolfieWolf

We got our first GSD puppy, Baron, 25 years ago from a "BYB." They had a beautiful female GSD and wanted to breed her. They searched very diligently for a stud with the right lines and temperment, and were very diligent with the puppies -- socializing them etc. Baron was a beautiful and exceptional dog, intelligent and had a great temperment. This was the only time those people bred their girl, so I don't know if they were BYBs or Hobby Breeders, but I sure would do it again.

They were probably responsible breeders. Things were different 25 years go with the GSD. Now because of all the breeding to extremes, it takes much more planning to get a dog like Baron

[WolfieWolf]

Originally Posted by Debbieg

They were probably responsible breeders. Things were different 25 years go with the GSD. Now because of all the breeding to extremes, it takes much more planning to get a dog like Baron

Debbie, I didn't know that, but now that you say it, it makes sense. We had to look a lot harder and longer to find Buck (8 months old).