Accepting Responsibility as a buyer when things go wrong.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by Sunstreaked

This is probably going to get me in hot water here, but I do believe a lot of the expectation on the part of a buyer is related to price.

If I pay $2,000 for a dog, it had better poop gold bricks! I didn't pay that much for my first OR second car!

With a rescue or a free pup, you take what you get. Any problems are just part and parcel of dog ownership. When you try and stack the deck so the odds of a healthy dog of good temperament is what you get by going to a breeder, I know I would personally feel a lot more resentment over any problems.

I would not bad mouth the breeder, but I certainly wouldn't be happy about it.

Money is funny. If it is hard to come by, people may have more expectations and be more likely to want some back, but not always. Sometimes people who pay the least are the most demanding. Sometimes people who do not balk at the price have more realistic expectations. I think it is just an individual thing and not an amount thing.

[Samba]

I have figured out over the years, I pay for the puppy and walk away. Their problems are my problems even if due to a defect.

I have never had a breeder require the first puppy back. I have not as yet, gone and picked a replacement pup. I might be silly though.

[wolfstraum]

One of the first things I tell people is that there are NO GUARANTEES!!! I give a warranty, but no one can guarantee anything!

There are genetic problems in our breed...it is not perfect. IMO, most breeders TRY to avoid them, but everyone has a different perspective on what is an acceptable risk. For example, I pretty much avoid 2 famous males due to a genetic predisposition I deem too risky to accept....other people like those dogs, and accept that the risk is there - it is merely a matter of what IS acceptable to the breeder!!!

I haven't had time to totally absorb and get into the 'iceberg' thread - I read the first post, and this is exactly what I am talking about....people look at the dog in front of them and breed it, ignoring or being ignorant of the possibilities in the resulting pedigree. I have a very difficult time finding a male I want to breed to my females, as I do look past the show results, the dog itself and the politics to find a pairing that I think fits both what I see in the dogs and what is behind them.

BUT!!! Things can still happen. A female can produce 20 pups that pass hip certs and still produce a pup with HD. The buyer MUST accept some responsibility for his choice as well as the breeder. It is possible. It has happened to most of us.

I would never ask a buyer to return a pup with HD to get a replacement....a neuter/spay cert and the official OFA results, yes - the dog itself, no. If I would have a pup with some genetic issue that is unexpected, it would be a one on one discussion - if I have a pup that at 8 weeks is not what I think it should be, then it would be put down or rehomed for minimal cost; coats discounted, monorchids the same if I ever would get one. Dwarfs - a good home found or kept. Temperament???? This is my biggest concern, and I would not sell a pup if the temperament was faulty - I would keep him and work through it - or find a home suitable to the issue.

I have only purchased two puppies, my now 10+ year old male, and a pup from Germany....so can say little about my experience in returning puppies. And the only dogs I have taken back were due to family/personal problems, not an issue with the dog. I know of a few I would give my eyeteeth to GET back though!!! LOL LOL

People do not intend to breed problematic dogs. They do it out of ignorance, laziness or greed...the buyer has to take responsibility for getting to know the breeder before he buys a puppy and understand the breeders goals and how what is being produced fits into his needs.

Lee

[Andaka]

As a breeder, my contract has never required the return of a puppy. I do require some sort of vet records tho. I sold a show prospect puppy to a woman in California. She claimed that he had some sort of "ataxia" and could not be shown. I offered to replace the puppy with one from the next litter. She didn't want to wait. I asked for vet records -- she said I could call her vet but she couldn't be bothered to send the reports. I offered her a 2 year old male that was OFA Hips and Elbows and had a major and several minor points toward his championship -- she claimed I was just trying to foist off a dog that I didn't want on her. I repeated my request for vet records -- she just started telling people at the dog shows out there that I was a horrible and uncaaring breeder. I never did get confirmation that he had a problem, just her word for it.

Another buyer bought a puppy from the same litter. Her pup had elbow dysplasia, and she chose to do an experimental surgery, so I refunded half of her purchase price and still gave her a replacement puppy several years later.

BTW, none of the puppies in that litter ever reproduced, and the mother was spayed because of the problems she produced.

[selzer]

I warranty hips and elbows. I allow 2 weeks for people to get a full purchase price back and return the puppy for any reason or no reason. But after that I do not refund cash. I can sit on the price of a puppy for two weeks and then it is going back into the dogs. 2 weeks is long enough for someone to decide if they want the dog or not.

I did have a pup with a heart murmur. I had had the pup to the vet for shots at least twice when I sold him. Each time the vet checked hearts. But the new buyer had taken the pup to her vet (I encourage this) and he heard a murmer. He told her that with all the trouble with her previous dog, she should return him. She was already attached to him, in just a couple of days. She called me on route to a specialist.

I had never had a heart murmur before, I encouraged her to go and get the EKG or whatever. The whole time wondering what this would mean. I called my vet and the stud owner, and both assured me that it can show up later. OK then. When she called back, she told me that the EKG showed that everything was there and it looked good, it looked like it would clean itself up, just a growth issue. I told her I would extend the money back warranty for an extra month to give the heart a chance it do this if she wanted. She agreed. Maybe that was a mistake on my part as the puppy would be even more bonded to the owner a month from now.

But she did not seem to want to give him back in any case, she said we would talk about it. As the pup was not paid in full, I was not sure what she meant by that, but I trusted her right away when I sold her the puppy, and was sure it would be ok. And it was. The puppy was checked again in three weeks and given a clean bill of health. The vet said there was no reason she could not do obedience or anything else with him.

I went to see him graduate from his obedience class and he took second place even though he seemed to be the youngest puppy -- it was a pre-novice obedience judging with an AKC judge. We corresponded throughout the payments, her sending checks and a note, and me sending receipts and a note. She paid him off prior to his first birthday, and sent me pictures of him. I called her the other day and she loves the dog.

I too think that it is most important to have a good match, and that the owners are happy with their dog. If the owners are not happy, then I will take him back. But, I am not going to pay for the dog, the bitch pup you bought from someone else, all their training, all their vetting including their hartgard medicine for the year that you had him. Sorry, but, NO. There are limits to keeping customers happy. That fellow got rid of the bitch pup, kept mine, and is super happy with him. I am a bit worried about the pup. I did not realize the guy was 80 when I sold the puppy. He did not LOOK 80, and I certainly did not ask. But, he told me he was after he had the dog. I call him now and again, the dog is three now or will be in August, and he goes all over with the guy and his wheel chair. He has let me know that he has a friend who will manage the dog for him if he needs to go into a high rise due to his health. The last time I talked to him, he is looking for another female, and looking for some Belgian Sheepdogs, do I know anyone who breeds them.

[NewbieShepherdGirl]

Originally Posted by Freestep

I would have expected the breeder to be aware of, and forthcoming about the missing toe. Maybe not a big deal in the grand scope of things, but that's not something you just "forget" to tell the buyer.

If I were the buyer of this pup, I'd be in contact with the breeder and letting him/her know the issues with the pup. I wouldn't demand (or even expect) any type of refund or replacement, but I'd at least expect the breeder to take a hard look at their program and try to determine where things went wrong. If they go merrily on their way producing puppies with the same issues, I'd not buy another pup from them.


They tend to run in the red anyway, but yes, nature is a harsh mistress and does what she wants, despite our best efforts. Even with the best breeding program, bad things can happen, and if the breeder has exercised due diligence in their program, it's not their fault. Like my dysplastic puppy--she had a pedigree with solid A stamps, so how could I possibly blame the breeder for that?

I believe there was a conversation about the toe, but over time it has just bothered my cousin more that he paid so much money and she's missing a toe.

I totally agree that he should bring it to the breeder's attention. Maybe it's a problem that's genetic, maybe it's not, but if I was a breeder I would want to know so I could check it out. I just think my cousin is a bit unreasonable in expecting some money back. Especially since this breeder was so good with him through the whole process, and seems to be really receptive any time my cousin has questions.

[JakodaCD OA]

From a buyer's perspective, ..I haven't had perfect dogs, but I've had wonderful dogs. Dogs I would never think of returning or have regretted having in my life.

I've never had a reason to bad mouth any breeder that produced my dogs.

It's nice to have a warranty, or whatever, but for me , thats the last thing I really care about and I honestly would probably never use it.

I just want a decent relationship with a breeder, be able to pass on any health information that may help them out should issues arise.

My feeling is, by now, I should have pretty good idea of what I want/like and who I would buy from.

I guess I consider myself lucky with the dogs I've had/have.

[Dragonwyke]

i used to work w/a collie breeder here in florida from a rescue perspective. i have never "bought" dogs. they've either been owner releases to my care, rescues, shelter dogs, or as in this case breeder or show dog retirees/culls w/no where else to go.

over the years i had aquired different dogs from her w/several problems, aggression issues, skin issues, eye problems. one thing she said to me has stuck w/me all these years "if you're in dogs long enough, no matter how good your lines are, you WILL see everything eventually." she had been working w/collies for just over 20yrs when i met her and began taking in her culls so she wouldn't have to have them destroyed - this was over 20yrs ago, before rescue work was so prevalent as it is now.

i think if ppl are taking on the responsibility of animals then they are taking on the responsibilities that come w/them. that includes the health and welfare. animals are not machines, you can't just oil them and give them a yearly tune up and expect them to just keep on chugging. they aren't any different than us, things go wrong, physically, psychologically, emotionally. as owner, caretakers, parents - WHATEVER we call ourselves - it is our responsibility to take care of them. we created them to be here FOR us, they didn't create themselves - or they'd still be wolves in the wild.

so whatever the breeder did or didn't do doesn't matter. once the money changes hands and the dog walks out the door into your care, he and his problems become yours. just like your kids do at the hospital. gonna return your little girl cuz she starts w/epilepsy, diabetes or bone cancer? don't thinks so....

just my opinion.

maria