Establishing Dominance

[middleofnowhere]

Cookie - yes, I know what you mean.

[Timber1]

Another silly comment, by a trainer i would never allow my dogs to be near. It follows:

This "doggie do as you please" mentality may be successful in a single dog household but have you tried it in a multi dog one? Don't you end up with alot of dog fights?
_________________________

Well lets see. I now have three GSD's in my home, including two males that have not been neutered. My forever male, whom came from a breeder I would never get neutered, albeit he will also never be bred.

My newest from the urgent board, is also not neutered because he was scheuled to be killed killed a few weeks ago. And then I have a seven year old female. I served as a rescue and adopted because she is well trained and great for the male guys.

As for multi dogs, the most I have ever had at one time is four.

But yes, my two unneutered shepherds will fight. So until the rescue guy gets adopted I do keep the males apart.

As a rescue, that is just something you deal with.

Finally, this is far from a doggie do as you please thing, so my continued concerns about trainers and silly comments. This is not PetSmart.

Howver, I do deal with a guy in the Midwest that helps rehab problem dogs, and now has twenty-two, including a wolf.

If anyone wants to know the guy's name, please send a personal E Mail. He does a great job, and the dogs love the guy.

As for the doggie do as you please comment, how silly.

[Packen]

Originally Posted By: Not_Just_A_DogThis thread is great! I'm going to hopefully be getting a German Shepherd dog in the next couple of years, but I'm very interested in becoming a dog trainer. I'm curious for those of you who have to use corrections what sort of "correction" do you use?

Here is my take on the question. Corrections are used when the dog knows the command fluently in different environments with distractions and yet ignores the handler. Correction could be a curt verbal command such as "NO", a snap to the prong collar, a nick to the e-collar etc etc. The level of the correction is judged from the situation/dog's temperament, some are mild some are pretty harsh. For example a dog showing aggression to a calm dog or innocent bystander is typically given a harsh correction as compared to a dog who does not obey the down command when you have company.

[BowWowMeow]

The usual correction around here is a verbal, "Eh, eh!" My dogs look to me as leader and that's normally all they need to remind them of whatever it is they're supposed to be doing. I used to use much harsher training techniques (lots of collar corrections, scruff shakes, alpha roll, yelling, etc.) but realized they MUCH less effective than positive reinforcement. Instilling fear (of you!) in your dog is doing them a grave disservice. Instilling confidence in them will help you build an excellent, dependable relationship. My dogs look to me for guidance, not because they are frightened of the consequences but because they genuinely want to please and work with me.

Just in case you're wondering, I have rehabbed several abused fear aggressive dogs, raised a very dominant (and very large) gsd female and several nervy, under-confident omega and beta dogs. I learned a tremendous amount from my first gsd (the dominant female) and the way she treated other dogs. She was fair, kind and consistent.

[Packen]

I forgot to clarify that a (correct) correction does not instill fear in the dog but rather mimics the mother's reprimand and doggy mamas can be harsh depending on the situation. If a working dog is being "dirty" to the helper a simple "eh eh" is not going to cut it in that situation with that dog. All I am saying is that there are there are different techniques for different situations and genetic make up's. No intent to offend.

[BowWowMeow]

Many people do not understand that there are different types of dogs and think it appropriate to apply harsh physical corrections to any dog if the dog does not immediately obey them. That said, there are several working dog trainers/breeders on here who emphasize positive reinforcement over harsh corrections. For one example, see this thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...page=2&fpart=1

As for the corrections that mother dogs issue, that is mostly done with body language and sound--very rarely do they issue physical corrections and then the other dog generally submits before any type of contact is made. I use similar types of language with my dogs.

I am not trying to be obnoxious here but I have simply seen too many people applying corrections with prong collars and physical force and thinking that because their dogs cry out in pain or become submissive, the corrections are working.

[sume747]

What is your guys take on cesar millan? I think he is awesome with dogs yet he uses the alpha roll.

[Chris Wild]

Originally Posted By: sume74What is your guys take on cesar millan? I think he is awesome with dogs yet he uses the alpha roll.

I think there is a VERY big difference between *raising* a dog and *rehabing* a dog as Milan does.

His methods are not intended to raise dogs properly, but rather to deal with a lifetime of behavior problems that exist because the dogs weren't raised properly. The dogs he deals with have years of bad habits, relationship, trust and leadership problems with their owners to the point where their owners are desperate for help (and it may very well be a case of "if this doesn't work we're getting rid of the dog"). This is a very different situation than raising a dog right, building a solid relationship from the beginning, therefore the methods employed will also be different. If things had been done the right way with those dogs from the start, they'd never be on Milan's show, and would not need, or benefit, from his sort of training.

I absolutely do NOT agree with his methods as an illustration of how dogs should be raised. Raising a dog properly does not require Milan-esque techniques, and in fact many of those techniques could cause big problem. This is my biggest dislike of the show.. that people watching will think that is the way they should raise and treat their dogs in general, rather than taking it at face value as just one of many ways to deal with the specific behavioral problems the dogs on the show are exhibiting.

As far as his methods in terms of dealing with the types of situations he deals with, I think there are better ways. But in the end, if it works things out and dog and owner can live happily, to a point the ends may justify the means and it's better than the alternative of the dog being dumped for behavioral problems the owners created in the first place.

[Liesje]

Originally Posted By: sume74What is your guys take on cesar millan? I think he is awesome with dogs yet he uses the alpha roll.

I respect his genuine dedication to dogs and I can tell he clearly loves them. There is something to be said for having a pack of 40+ dogs interacting without a fight.

Beyond that though, I don't care for him. First of all, his basic principles are nothing new, ANY dog trainer would agree that dogs need exercise, discipline, boundaries, etc. I think his assessments of where the owners have gone wrong are pretty accurate, but any dog trainer or even a dog savvy person could make the same assessment and many of the same recommendations.

I think too often he mis-labels dogs. Once he called a dog "red zone aggression" when all the dog did was pull and whine to get at other dogs. It was just a dog that had never been taught leash manners and maybe slightly leash reactive, but NOT a truly dog aggressive dog!

He seems to often rely on physical corrections and/or flooding. Neither of these are techniques I use to train (or "rehab") a dog. I prefer setting the dog up for success, only asking of the dog what it already understands, and then rewarding the dog. Slowly increasing the time, distance, distraction, etc. but not asking too much of the dog so the dog always has a chance to do the right thing on his own and get rewarded. I do use physical corrections on adult dogs that are trained, but not on a dog that is still learning what I'm asking. For example, when he puts the dogs on a leash he strings them up on a thin choke lead and is constantly correcting and holding the leash tight. I would never do this to a dog that had never learned how to properly walk on a leash. Often the poor dogs look confused or just give up.

I see dogs that submit to Millan out of frustration or avoiding the physical corrections, but what are they really learning? What are the owners really learning?

I do not believe in building a relationship with my dogs by dominating them. I think dogs want things simple and they do what works for them. Therefore, it's all about communication and finding ways of letting the dog get what it wants by doing what YOU want.

[CookieTN]

Originally Posted By: sume74What is your guys take on cesar millan? I think he is awesome with dogs yet he uses the alpha roll.

Cesar? Oh, he's okay, but I don't care for his methods. I think a lot of him for saving many dogs from being euthanized, but I wouldn't want him to train my dogs. I do look at both sides though. I checked one of his books out of the library recently.