Establishing Dominance

[Qyn]

There have been a few threads regarding the worth of "dominance" and "alpha" used as labels or descriptive terms and I find that for those who are either natural leaders, or who have not had a problem with their dogs, consider that these terms indicate compulsion methods. While I am aware that that can be a possibility, I (personally) mostly read it as a name for the role the dog would prefer to (and mostly will anyway) see the human have and be worthy of having, not the method used to obtain that role.

Many humans do not have any problems with their human/dog relationship but those that do (for what ever reason) and seek advice, are often told the problem is due to the dog not seeing the human as the "Alpha" or "dominant" partner in the relationship. This, IMO, does not mean that the human needs to dominate the dog or use compulsive methods but maybe the human needs some guidelines as to how the dog sees the relationship and some help in behaving like a natural leader worthy of respect. These should not involve bully boy tactics but should involve a guidance to attitude.

If that means the human with less knowledge or leadership skills needs to do some things (example exit the door first; eat first; etc) that a natural leader does not have to do (because the leadership issue is not in question) then, that is not a something that should be considered unnecessary for everyone just because it is unnecessary for those that already have those skills.

[Dohhhhh]

Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDAnd that works well with some dogs. Not others. Within the GSD breed there is a massive variance of temperament, especially in the United States. A GSD that can stare down a helper or the most dominant sheep is a dog that gets to hunt and is not inhibited and may not have a "you do everything for me, so kiss kiss I love you" mentality. Different dogs need different leadership, just like different dogs need different training methodology. I am not referring to compulsion or beating a dog into submission, but certain dogs do need strong fair leadership with clear cut rules while others need to be built up along the way.

Good post John. As a trainer do you not find that more dogs than not "need strong fair leadership with clear cut rules." The clear cut rules part, in my opinion, holds true with any dog. As a trainer, I find that the greatest problem most of our clients have with their dog(s) is confusion on the dogs part because the human is not being consistant.

[GSD07]

Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD certain dogs do need strong fair leadership with clear cut rules while others need to be built up along the way.

I strongly agree. Take my dog Yana who is not your normal Rin-tin-tin. She has weak nerves, fearful, reactive, smart, stubborn, very independent, not food driven, physically strong and not submissive. She's a hard dog with mental issues, product of American breeding , that couldn't care less about pleasing me or getting my praise.

After meeting with a behaviorist I reviewed how I handled her (I was no correction/all positive approach fancier) and now I don't hesitate to apply a strong correction when needed. I do it every time if Yana desides to ignore me or my command, I'm making everything black and white for her. The result is immediate - calmer dog that starts respecting me and actually wants to spend time with me and show me affection.

[Arobryn]

Doggiedad - I'd venture to say that you're right - for you. You're probably a natural at this. I've a friend that's the same way - you give her a dog and she gets along with it - no matter how whacked it was before.

But some of the other folks are right - some of us just aren't naturals. Much like some people aren't natural parents to human kids. My rescue pit bull mix is a fairly fearful dog and I'm certain me not understanding her or myself made her worse. My pure bred, hand picked, middle -of-the-road GSD is a little high strung and anxious. I figure there's got to be something that I'm doing that's contributing to these anxieties so I'm not a natural, but the good news is I'm trying!

I appreciate what you've said, though, Doggiedad and I'm interpretting it to mean that if I'm a better person I'll also be a better dog owner - and vise verse - as I learn to be a better dog person I'll improve personally, also.

And another thing that your notes got me thinking about Doggiedad - humans and dogs really are very similar - we're pack animals and we like knowing who the leaders is (not necessarily the "boss", but who's going to handle things) and looked at from that perspective - if some big guy kept walking right up into my space, yes, I'd move, but I'd also think he's rude. And I don't think I'd follow him as my leader. So maybe what I need to do is figure out what would work for ME and see if that works for my dog. Someone said it above - we are more willing to follow leaders we trust to take care of us than people who bully us into submission. Doggiedad - this is probably exactly what you're saying - you've earned your dog's trust because you take care of them, they know their basic needs are being met, they have food and saftey, then on top of that they get a comfortable life - you've not given them any reason not to trust you - not to believe you'll handle all the serious stuff, plus you make life fun and relaxing.

I didn't quite get what you were saying when I first read your notes, Doggiedad - I figured you just had this magical knowing or something that I obviously didn't. But now that I've put you all through this ramble I get it a little better and will think through this more.

Whew - being a good dog owner's tough! But I think I'm going to come out a better person on the other end of it.

Thanks for all the thought provoking dialogue!

[Chris Wild]

Originally Posted By: Qyn

Many humans do not have any problems with their human/dog relationship but those that do (for what ever reason) and seek advice, are often told the problem is due to the dog not seeing the human as the "Alpha" or "dominant" partner in the relationship. This, IMO, does not mean that the human needs to dominate the dog or use compulsive methods but maybe the human needs some guidelines as to how the dog sees the relationship and some help in behaving like a natural leader worthy of respect. These should not involve bully boy tactics but should involve a guidance to attitude.

This is a very, very good post.

That is exactly the problem I see too. Too many people think the way to estabish dominance is to *dominate* the dog, using force. And unfortunately, there are all too many books/videos/trainers out there who advocate just that... roll you dog, correct him for everything, follow a list of rules (he eats last, he goes through the door last he doesn't get on the furniture, etc...) and you'll be the alpha. When in truth that is NOT the proper way to be alpha. And if you ARE alpha, whether it comes naturally or you really had to work at it, things like dogs on the furniture and who eats before who don't matter.

[Brightelf]

I agree with Qyn's post. True leadership pulls a dog happily along in it's wake. However, pairings of extremely "strong" dogs with extremely soft handlers exist. When both are far enough at opposite ends of the spectrum, the match may not be ideal, but it's the owner's job to behave like a consistant leader, as strong a leader as that particular dog needs to be able to relax. When the handler, for whatever reason, can only bend so far in morphing into a strong enough leader, that's what the NILIF can help with. Maybe also even the going through doorways first. These may help bridge the gap (or may not) when that particular dog needs strong leadership to feel relaxed. If leadership isn't there, the NILIF won't help. But for some relationships and odd pairings between dog and handler, it can definitely help.

[car2ie]

This is a great thread. My dog Alice has a higher drive than my last GSD, so I'm not sure if it's a female on female competition for status in our little world; or it's just adolecence. I'm still trying to find a balance between dominate your dog and letting the dog bully me.
She's sixteen months old so she's starting to come around but I'm the female human and must do NILF and first one through doors etc.

I've never liked the "alpha roll" and surprisingly enough at the park she dropped the ball and went after a geriatric pointer ignoring the Leave it command and I instantaneously tackled her to the ground and we left the park. We then went on park restriction and spent two weeks on leash walks and a park with the long leash. She hasn't shown such attitude but I do think since the taking her down she's like "wow...mom is dominant"

I'd say it was my fault for not asserting my status at an early stage and on a more consistant basis. I still don't care for the alpha roll.

[Keisha]

This thread is great! I'm going to hopefully be getting a German Shepherd dog in the next couple of years, but I'm very interested in becoming a dog trainer. I'm curious for those of you who have to use corrections what sort of "correction" do you use?

[Packen]

I am also an advocate for fairness and consistency along with a serious daily workout. With these 3 factors one is already on the pack leadership path.

Each dog is slightly different, the vast majority will easily accept the owner as alpha and hide the owners mistakes. One out of eight or nine owners end up with the alpha pup of the litter, this dog will require a slightly different approach keeping same basics of fairness and consistency.

Now enter the variances (doggy genes and owner competency) and things become cloudy. A weak owner with an alpha dog, a weak owner with a nervy (insecure) dog, a weak owner with an Omega dog (by weak I mean someone not knowledgeable to the dogs needs). Keeping the owner as constant these 3 types of dogs will provide 3 different outcomes if training is not tailored to meet individual need. Then enter the individual drives (prey, defense and social) for these dogs and things become even more complicated! All would be ok if we owners educate ourselves and cater to our individual dogs needs.

Here one may enter the scenario of a nervy (insecure) dog with a low defense threshold, he is over weight, bored to death, his life sucks and when he snaps his owner tries to wrestle him to the ground, someone call 911

[CookieTN]

I'm not a believe in the dominance theory anymore. I use complete positive reinforcement training and I am still a leader to my dogs, but I am also a follower. Anyone know what I mean?