How do you define "being alpha"....

[lcht2]

alpha = leader NOT bully boss...short and sweet dog vocab lesson for today..haha

[selzer]

I define being alpha as being the leading dog or wolf in a pack of dogs. People cannot do this, they are not dogs or wolves.

The alpha dog, alpha bitch have mating rights. People cannot do this, they will go to jail.

The alpha dog will get injured or old and weak, and a younger stronger dog will chew him up and maybe even kill him. Other pack members may join in. Do we STILL want to be the Alpha???

I don't buy the BS about being the Alpha. I don't do alpha rolls. I let my dogs go through doorways ahead of me. I let my dogs on couches, chairs, beds. In fact, I come in and feed the dog, then I go to prepare my meal. When I get up, I feed the dogs, sometimes I go in and get myself something to eat afterwards.

My dogs know that I am a people, and that if I tell them to do something, they had better do it, or I will go and catch them and put them where I want them to be. Generally, that only happens a few times with puppies. My dogs really want to do do what I want them to do because they want to make me happy. It is really not about treats, because they get treats once in a blue moon. Maybe it is about pets and praise though. They like for me to say, "Good girl, what a good girl you are, that's my pretty girlie."

I will encourage others to practice NILIF because so many people find it helpful, and for dogs that have problems, it makes sense. But I do not withold (make them work for) food or potty breaks for my dogs. I do not use crates or kennels to punish dogs. I do not use collars that pinch or shock the dogs to get them to submit. And I am pretty free with praise and pets. In short, I pretty much do everything wrong. By grace or luck I have a pretty nice pack though.

[FourIsCompany]

I pretty much agree with Liesje 100% on this. (Hi Lies!)

I think people all have an idea in their heads about what "alpha" and "dominance" means to them and when having a discussion on a forum, it's important to make sure we all know the definition of the word or we could argue about it all day. (And some do)

I do use the words, but I'm not a dog. And my dogs know that. My dogs aren't wolves. And I know that. So we're all clear. In fact, wolves don't even enter into the picture when I'm talking about being alpha or displays of dominance. It's all about the relationship between dog and man (or woman).

[Freddy]

Tango is now 4 mos and a week. He's turning into a great dog. I don't know what I would do if I didn't have his sister for him to chew on and play with! We have been in Schutzhund (not my first dog) for about a month and he is doing very well in all phases. "protection" at this phase is purely rag play so we have no aggression yet.

He is also quite a humper! He also likes to stand over his sister when she lets him even though she can clearly throw him just by standing up so I would assume this is dominance or "alpha behavior".

I travel a couple of days each week and my wife tells me that when I am gone he goes and sits perfectly by the garage door and stares at the knob about the same time each day, approximately when I come home. He sits there for up to an hour. He's clearly a daddy's boy, and definitely knows who is in charge!

So last night I get home from my trip, and go through the usual play routine, feed them and us, and settle in for some toy time by the tv. After a while I get up on the couch and he decides he hasn't had enough daddy time so he sits in front of me and starts to bark. I toss the ball a couple of times and then settle in for some pets on the head. He decides he wants to be closer and decides to try to get in my lap, which I usually discourage when I am on the furniture. I decide to let him up but it's not enough to be in my lap. He proceeds to climb up and drape himself over my neck so he can be in higher position.

I've not had one aggression or failure to comply issue with this pup. Would this be interpreted as play or a weak attempt at dominance?

[FourIsCompany]

Originally Posted By: FredHe also likes to stand over his sister when she lets him even though she can clearly throw him just by standing up so I would assume this is dominance or "alpha behavior".

In my own personal dictionary, this is a display of dominance, but NOT alpha behavior. Alphas don't hump. The don't have to display their dominance unless seriously challenged. They are usually very mellow dogs to which the other dogs defer.

The behavior you describe is what I call "alpha-wanna-be" or "you're not the boss of me". In other words, it's a lower-ranking member trying to play like he's dominant, even though it's really all a show.

Quote:
I've not had one aggression or failure to comply issue with this pup. Would this be interpreted as play or a weak attempt at dominance?

I wouldn't call this dominance, though some might. I'd just call it pushing the boundaries or being pushy. It's not something I'd be concerned about as long as he gets down when you tell him to.

I don't believe dogs display dominance to people. I think they resource guard and other unwanted behaviors, but I've never seen a dog display dominance toward a human (in my dictionary, of course)

[Freddy]

He doesn't resource guard with me at all. I actually just threw that out there because I thought it was funny. After me being out of town for three days I interpreted it as "being in dad's lap is not enough". He's very attached to me.

Alpha-wanna-be is probably a good way to describe an 18 week pup and his 3 yr old new sis.

He's already got great nerves, and nothing phases him. The only thing I wish I could change is the random bursts of energy like someone stuck a bottle rocket up his butt. They last about a minute, and he will go top speed around, over, or through anything in his way!

[Cassidy's Mom]

Speaking of humping, none of my dogs have ever done it to dogs outside the pack, but both Keefer AND Halo do it to each other. When they play they're pretty equal - she's much smaller, around 25 pounds less than him, and she can still walk underneath him, (but barely, and it's probably not that comfortable for him, lol!), but she can give as good as she gets. They take turns being the dog on the ground while the other dog is standing during play. And they don't just put paws on the other dog's back, it's truly humping. Not sure what that means, but it's pretty funny!

Both of them have encountered dogs that try out dominance behaviors on them, and neither of them like it much. If another dog starts to put its head over Keef's neck, I get between them and break it up immediately before he tells the dog off himself. Halo had a dog in her Puppy 2 class that humped EVERYONE, (the owner was an older woman who seemed completely clueless to his rude behavior) and I had managed to set up on the opposite side of class and keep her away during play breaks for the first few weeks. On week 4 I turned around just in time to catch him on her back and she immediately turned her head around and told him to back off in no uncertain terms. I've never seen her snark at another dog like that before or since. The trainer was great, she said "that was a totally appropriate response". She could tell I was upset, but it wasn't because of what Halo did, it was because I had failed to keep her away from that dog so she that HAD to take things into her own paws, so to speak.

Anyway, great thread! I practice NILIF with my dogs, and have clear rules about what I expect and what is and is not allowed around the house. Keefer has impulse control issues and extreme prey drive so he needs constant reminders of how things work. I don't think he truly tests me, he's extremely bonded to me and wants to please but he's always fighting against his instincts and sometimes the instincts win. In many ways he's more compliant than any other dog I've had because he is so in tune with me. I think he really tries hard most of the time to be "good". Because he and Halo are so obsessed with food, I do make them down/stay with their food bowls on the floor before being released to eat because I want to continually reinforce good manners around food. They do this automatically, without me saying a word, and I usually release them right away, sometimes I put the canned food back in the garage refrigerator first, so it's a few seconds before they're released, with me out of sight very briefly. I start this with new puppies to train self control around food, and I don't see any reason to stop once they're adults, by then it's just a routine part of their life.

They're not allowed on the furniture, but it's not an alpha thing, I just don't want big dogs on the furniture. They can go on our bed when we're not in it or for a brief good night or good morning snuggle, but they don't sleep with us. I use mostly positive reinforcement to train them, and mostly verbal corrections. When necessary I pull out the VOICE OF GOD, but my hubby has a much better VOG than I do, so he does that more than I do. You know, thinking about it right now, most of what I do with my dogs isn't so much about wanting to be alpha or dominant over them, or trying to earn their respect or impose my leadership on them, it's really more about teaching them good manners and impulse control - sitting and waiting to be released to go through doors rather than rushing through willy nilly (not for potties though, I let them right out in the morning when they've got to GO!), sitting before putting the leash on, sitting and maintaining eye contact when I've got a biscuit or bully stick or some other treat to give them, waiting in the car before being released to get out, sitting for ball play, before taking the leashes off at the park, etc. Those things - controlling the stuff they want and imposing rules about how they may earn it - may HELP earn their respect for my leadership, but it's not really done with that in mind.

[Barb E]

Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom*snipping a whole bunch of really good stuff.....*
Those things - controlling the stuff they want and imposing rules about how they may earn it - may HELP earn their respect for my leadership, but it's not really done with that in mind.

I think you said it all right in that last paragraph. In my mind (which is pretty tired today!) for many people when they try to lead or be a leader they impose things in a manner that dogs naturally fight. When we provide rules and boundries and set our dogs up to succeed we "lead" them in a natural manner.

I think sometimes people get caught up in the latest and greatest terminology being used by the "experts" and sometimes the translation really doesn't sink in.

Great post Debbie!!

[selzer]

Having had a couple of litters and keeping puppies more than eight weeks, I would like to say that 4 month old puppies play. Part of their play includes humping. A pup can hump another and five minutes later the other may be humping him.

There is a danger in labeling a puppy so young as alpha, or alpha wanna be, if you are likely to change your method of managing the dog because of it. If the dog is always on top, always humping the other and not allowing the other to play with toys, get pets, eat before him etc, closer to a year old, I think that is a better gage of his character. Simple humping behavior at 18 weeks of age doesn't indicate much to me.

[StarryNite]

Great topic and good reading! I also agree to not "overdo" it. With Lulu, we have this eye contact thing going. When I tell her "ah ah" or am trying to stress something to her I stare her right in the eye with a strong expression and she "gets it" right away. She knows the rules by now and she knows when she breaks them and gets in trouble which is when I get up and give her "the look" and re-inforce them. So far she is turning out to be a fantastic dog who respects the boundries I have placed and follows the "law". I have noticed lately all I have to do is give her "the look" and she stops whatever she was doing she knows is wrong