want to understand and become a better pack leader

[bearlasmom]

obviously it should def be a sticky. you may want to add the book by jan fennel called the dog whisper to it.

fantastic info that you have added. take a bow

[DianaM]

http://www.k9deb.com/socialis.htm

A great link that was posted by Cassidy's Mom regarding the usage of social isolation in reinforcing leadership.

[Cassidy's Mom]

I just read a great article by Pat Miller in the Whole Dog Journal called "Biscuits, Not Rolls". It's about using alpha rolls, and other forms of physical dominance with your dog and why it's not a good idea. The article is from July 06, I'm a little behind in my reading, lol! I can't paste it here without violating copyright laws, but there are a couple of things I'd like to paraphrase and add to this thread.

She writes that Ethology studies from the 70's and 80's suggest that canine social structure holds together because appeasement behaviors are offered by subordinate members, not because higher ranking members demand subservience. Successful leaders calmly control the good stuff, the basis for modern positive training as an appropriate and effective method for creating a harmonious mixed species social group.

She quotes Dr. Karen Overall's book Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals: "The behavior of the lower ranking status individuals, not the higher ranking one, is what determines the relative hierarchical rank. Truly high-ranking animals are tolerant of lower-ranking ones".

Pat Miller goes on to ssay that training methods that encourage dogs to offer deference behaviors, and then reward them for it, are a much closer approximation of actual pack behavior than any application of force. As she says, use biscuits (training treats), not (alpha) rolls.

She also quotes Steven Lindsay in his Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training Volume One: Etiology and Assessment of Behavior Problems - "A wise lupine leader avoids unnecessary dominance contests and assertions of authority". He goes on to cite a 1988 study by E. Fonberg, Dominance and Aggression, that notes that dominance established without resorting to aggression appears to be more stable than dominance maintained by constant vigilance and displays of strength.

So basically, you wait for and encourage your dog to offer deference behaviors in order to make good stuff happen, and ignore pushy behavior so that it's not rewarded. Some people are concerned that teaching your dog that he can get you to click and treat by offering certain behaviors elevates his status because he's controlling you. She states that a dog's psychological response to deference behaviors appears to be so hardwired that if a dog repeatedly performs them he becomesdeferent. He's not an actor - if he does deference, he is deferent.

[DianaM]

Good post. I would like to add that if one decides to use alpha rolls, please be aware that you could easily require reconstructive plastic surgery. Even with a muzzle, equipment fails. Anyone doing an alpha roll should understand and be okay with losing a finger, nose, or face.

Being the huge Star Trek fan that I am, there is an episode of Star Trek that shows Captain Picard as part of a renegade crew of artifact thieves. The leader of that crew controlled everyone with pain-inflicting collars. Everyone obeyed because if they didn't, they would collapse in horrendous pain. During the episode, the undercover Picard gained the trust of the crew and led an uprising against the crew's leader. Victorious, he destroyed the device that controlled the pain collars and said something like there would be no more pain. He then proceeded to take control of the situation. Everyone obeyed him, but this time willingly and free of pain, and even a bit more enthusiastically. One can be a leader through compulsion, but through fairness and respect will make the human-dog bond go a lot farther. Dictators can lead, but they never make good leaders.

[larrydee33]

There is so much misconception and myth about all of this.
Kevin Behan has written a book called Natural Dog Training I feel it has groundbreaking material that will affect the way we view our dogs and interact with them.
Kevin puts it all together very nicely before we got bits and pieces here and there it is a work that is over 30 years in the making.

Let's take the wolf for instance and the concept of the Alpha. Kevin feels the Alpha is the wolf with the most uninhibited temperment. What drives the wolf and our dogs are their prey drives. It's not that simple but a good starting point. Dogs don't have intellegence but are in tune with nature and their natural drives.
During a hunt is when it all comes into play each wolf has his own job this is not communicted by the alpha but flows naturally thru the prey or hunt drive they instivily know what their job is at the time of the kill each wolf attacks a specific part of the body.

This is not light bed time reading but it will help you better understand your dog and to be in harmony with him so both of you can have a much deeper relationship and for once truly understand how to train your dog working with him not against him.

Natural Dog Training is avaiable thru Amazon.com Kevin's web site is http://www.naturaldogtraining.com

[mjbgsd]

Originally Posted By: DanLWI don't own a GSD yet, but I'm doing my homework. I recently read Cesar's Way, and here is my non-professional review.

If you read some of the one star reviews at Amazon, you can easily get the wrong idea about the book. Claims range from the book being an autobiography to accusations that Cesar advocates the use of shock collars, which I have neithr read in the book nor seen in any of his season 1 television shows. (of which I've seen them all)

The first chapter is indeed a short autobiography. It basically provides the background to Cesar's life and how he got to where he is. However, once chapter 2 begins, the autobiography ends.

If you are looking for specific ways to deal with behavior problems, this is not what you're looking for. This book rather shares Cesar's philosophy of how dogs think, and how we need to act in order to be a calm assertive pack leader. This book is more for the person who wants to know how to act so that severe problems don't develop.

In Chapter 2 he shares his theory on the energy shared between all humans and animals. For example, a dog jumping up on somebody is excited energy. Likewise a human shouting at the dog jumping up on him is also displaying excited energy. It's this energy that we need to control so that our dog gets the right message. Types of energy include excited, nervous, agressive, calm-assertive, and calm-submissive. The first three are to be avoided by both the dog and the human.

Chapter 3 talks about dog psychology. In forming his views on dog psychology, Cesar indicates that the two books which most influenced and reassured him about what he knew about dogs were Dr. Bruce Fogle's "The Dog's Mind", and "Dog Psychology" by Leon F. Whitney, DVM. In this chapter he relates how dogs see things and how to relate to dogs. Dogs communicate with nose, eyes, ears, in that order. He mentions the proper way to meet a dog, and how to look at a dog: Animal, Species (Dog), Breed, Name/Personality.

Chapter 4 talks about the "Power of the Pack". This is the idea the bringing an unbalanced dog into a balanced healthy pack is the best therapy for an unbalanced dog since the other dogs will teach it how to behave in a balanced manner.

Chapter 5 is about issues and "How we screw up our dogs". It talks about what leads to dominance aggression, fearful aggression, hyperactivity, anxiety, obsession, phobias, and low self esteem.

Chapter 6 is in regards to the "Red Zone". This is where dogs go when we allow them to progress through all the stages leading to lethal levels of aggression. A dog in the "Red Zone" will not listen to anything anybody has to say. It's basically a kill mode. In this chapter he leads off detailing the tragic story of a lady in San Francisco who was killed by two Presa Canario/Mastiffs back in January of 2001. Later in the chapter he points out the circumstances that allowed these two dogs to progress that far. He ends the chapter with an admission that there were two dogs whom he was unable to rehabilitate. Cedar, a 2-year old purebred pit bull, and a 5-year old chow/golden retriever mix named Brutus. Both dogs are living out life in a no-kill shelter, a result of abuse early on in their lives.

Chapter 7 explains Cesar's formula for raising a balanced and healthy dog. This formula is Exercise, Discipline, and Affection in that order. Exercise encompases walks with the human leading. Discipline can be summed up in rules, boundaries, and limitations. Affection is what our dogs earn by adhering to rules boundaries and limitations.

Chapter 8 is about living happily with your dog. This chapter talks about choosing a dog, bringing him home, and setting rules.

Chapter 9, the final chapter, is a short pep-talk about how we can fulfill ourselves by fulfilling our dogs. Basically Cesar states the reasons that we need dogs more than they need us. And that by fulfilling their needs, they will fulfill ours.


Overall the book is a very good read. It's not one of those technical dive straight in, go down deep, come up dry type books. It's a good book for anybody who wants to better understand how to live with a dog in harmony. Throughout the book Cesar relates back to specific cases where he helped rehabilitate dogs (and their owners). These cases are both cases seen in his television series and cases from before his series.

Again this is not a "How to Fix Your Problem Dog" book. You won't find specific advice for particular problems. Rather you will find what he believes to be the best way to relate to our dogs so that they never develop a serious problem.

If you're looking for more specific advice on being the pack leader, "The Dog Listener" by Jan Fennell would be a good read. She presents a version which leans more toward the "positive only" end of the spectrum, while still detailing how we should behave in order for our dogs to see us as the pack leader. Personally, I think that both these books go very well together, and recommend both.

As to how well the methods work, we'll see how my future GSD turnes out.

"Hello, Cesar? Help! My GSD throws a fit every time he misses 'The People's Court'!"

This book is an excellent read! Some things in it I don't agree but all in all, I agree with everything he has to say in this book. The way he handles dogs is just amazing!

[J_Austin]

Completely agree with the wonderful summary of these 2 books. Cesar has wonderful advice as does Jan. Depending on the dog, one approach may work better than the other. For most dogs, the best approach would probably be a blend of the two.

jeff

Originally Posted By: mjbgsd

This book is an excellent read! Some things in it I don't agree but all in all, I agree with everything he has to say in this book. The way he handles dogs is just amazing!

[CurlySu717]

Ok, so I'm wondering if anyone has actually done, word-for-word, what Frawley wrote about Groundwork. I thought that the NILIF article was great, and I also liked the forpaws.org article on being a pack leader. In retrospect, the mistake my Dad made with his GSD was that he never truly established himself as the pack leader -- and I make that statement based on Dixie's behavior.

However, as I'm about to adopt a very shy and timid rescue GSD, I can't imagine leaving her in her crate for weeks and only interacting with her to feed her and walk her. I'm afraid the dog will become even more shy and timid and even withdrawn.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that pack structure needs to be established, I'm just not sure his method is the best for a naturally shy, submissive dog. It seems to me that I would be able to establish myself as the alpha without putting the dog in solitary confinement!

Thoughts? Opinions? Comments? I'm open to it all -- I want to be a good doggie mommy!

[song032005]

curlysu717, good for you for preparing before you bring her home.

i think that folks could see two sides of whether fawleys methods would work on a shy dog. some may believe that developing a strong leadership role fawleys way would give the dog no reason to be so timid, because the dog would have complete confidence in his leader, and maybe some will feel as you stated and it could backslide the dog because its too harsh for such a sensitive soul. the wonderful thing about free-will is you can take the information you learn and apply only the ones you are comfortable with and what that dog can relate to. i have applied some of each method.

but IMO i think fawleys methods can be very affective for a strong-willed and/or dominant dog that prehaps doesnt respect leadership of a human as easily as prehaps a timid and/or submissive dog in nature would respond to. timid dogs can be as unpredictable as an aggressive dog if leadership isnt established because it can force them to react because no one is protecting them and thats a leaders job as well. building a relationship with a dog that you are leader and that all thing comes from you is only part of it. being the one that makes decisions on the packs behalf is the other. also, IMO its a state of mind as well, and if you are NOT consiously and subconsiously comfortable with a certain method, i think it would do more harm then good.

there is another thing to consider, the level of the dogs timidness. and why i think that no one way works for all dogs.

here is what i would suggest, find out as much as you can about the dogs history, so you have some idea of what she has been through. have a behaviorist assess the dog once you take ownership so you know what YOU are actually dealing with, so you know how the dog is responding to you and your lifestyle. dont allow the dog loose out of your sight at any time whether in your home or out in your yard, because you dont know what can set her off and this will avoid putting her and others in danger or put her in the position of feeling like she is in danger. she needs to learn to trust you and you need to learn if you can trust her and you cant give her a fair chance if she is left to fend for herself. scope through this site there are alot of us that have timid dogs [myself included] that have threads here with lots of infomation. and again dogs are not the same but it does help to learn different senerios and different prespectives.

a few added things. taking your dog for walks, and playing does help build a bond and trust between the both of you, be sure to put that into your everyday. its one thing when you have to be cautious with owning a timid dog in the world, but nothing is truly better when against all odds you can still have a companion that you know trusts you. they are all loving creatures no matter what their quirks are, we just have to offer them the right balance to be happy. good luck with your girl and i hope something i said here helps.

[Timber1]

Before and after getting my German Sheherd Dog, Timber, I have read numerous books and articles about the breed. These include Ed Frawley's stuff, Ceasar Millan, The Monks of New Skete, a few written by Vets, Chris Wild's, the Third Way and of course Particia McConnell.

Some seemed to be a bit contradictory, which raised questions, and I am thankful to the folks on this board because they helped resolve some of my questions that specifically related to Timber.

However, I am 100% convinced that as a new owner and their GSD bond, the new owner will begin to recognize the best training methods for their pup.

Ed,s advice is generally good; however, training police and military dogs is quite different then having a companion dog who was never "leader of the pack". When I sought out Chris for advice on Timber she provided several suggests. One of the most important was you need to understand your dog, not vice-versa. You have a great puppy and once you figure him out your are literally home free.

In the case of your dog I do not think it will be very difficult to establish yourself as the leader. Your dog sounds like it needs someone it can trust, and in my opinion does not need any type of harsh treatment. Once that trust is established you are the leader.

NILIF is great, never use solitary confinement, and spend as much time as possible with your dog. This guy needs a leader he can trust.