German Shepherds Forum banner

Don Sullivan method

18K views 202 replies 27 participants last post by  Chip18 
#1 ·
Don Sullivan's method- when we started training, and my man and I were total novices- except for training horses,- so we got his CDs and the plastic mild prong. Inga was three months old then I think. It worked great for basic obedience and we did not become treat dispensers. He advises to have the dog work for praise and play. At about five months she started to make a little snarly face when asked to do a command and it was always when being asked to assume submissive positions, such as a down. This looked a little bit like the beginning of handler aggression to me. She is a German and Chek bloodline and has a hundred and sixty four schutzhunds in her lineage. They are mostly showlines but European sch had to be titled for biting people, and most importantly, stop biting people, in order to breed. Or maybe it was just a phase. Also she was the dominant pup in the litter, she shrugs off correction easily and is apparently rather hard. Anyway, discussing this directly Mr Sullivan he advised to use a cloth muzzle when working the down and go to the metal prong. This stopped her pulling But still, you had to have your hand near her face to correct the down when the muzzle is off. Calving season was about to begin. So I got the ecollar. Sure I was nervous about using it, I know you can ruin a dog with it if used incorrectly. I have no trainers out here to advise, I am the trainer. So studying its use by the maker of sportdog , it does not teach anything, it reinforces what they already know. But it did extinguish the snarly face and also barking at other dogs from the back of the truck immediately at a very low setting. I don't think she connects the correction with us. She does suddenly become very obedient as soon as it is put on and may be collar wise. I like that I can tone or vibrate to signal her at five hundred yards away. This is great for distance work. It can be also be used like a clicker to tell the dog that exact moment they did the desired behavior. I also like that I can give a size seven correction in case she takes off after a calf or a deer, which can get a dog run over by a car or shot dead. The collar can save their life. Anyway, now at her first birthday she knows thirty commands. I understand this is no big deal but I myself am very happy with her.
> up, enough barking, sit, down, stay, load up, off load, wait, jump, get it, bring it, kennel, off, out, NO, come, heel, get him, lets go, relax, stand, no bite, WHAT IS IT?- very important- check out possible threat out in the dark-, eat eat in German, find it, leave it, drag, crawl- such as under a row of chairs, and cross- such as a ten foot two by six across two platforms - and now another circus trick, jump through a hoop and into a tank of water. Also she knows the distant hand signals sit and down and stay an eighth of a mile away. Now she is learning to heel to a ridden horse at walk, trot and gallop.

What is an amazing breed are these GSDs. I have never known a dog like this. The breed to so responsive to training. I have had many dogs but she is my first real dog German Shepherd. Thanks for reading.
 
See less See more
  • Like
Reactions: LBethO
#2 ·
One hundred and sixty-four now? Wow. That's up from last time - people who have her relatives must be pretty serious about titling the dogs.

And she's a show line? I thought you said she was a WL. Either way, that's pretty impressive she knows thirty commands. I haven't counted what mine knows. She knows the basics, and I just talk to her a lot and she adds to her vocabulary that way.
 
#3 · (Edited)
I said mostly WGSL line. The checs were WL. Oh yea its only a hundred and fifty four Schutzhunds. Inga spilled water into my keyboard and now I have to type out numbers. What commands does your dog know? How did you train ? Does s/he know circus tricks?
 
#4 ·
I said mostly WGSL line. The checs were WL. Oh yea its only a hundred and fifty four Schutzhunds. What commands does your dog know? How did you train ? Does s/he know circus tricks?
Oh, that would make sense. The Czechoslovakian lines would be working.

My dog knows the basics and then some things that I find useful in daily life. Circuses are a dying industry, so I have not placed priority on circus tricks.
 
#5 ·
@Nurse Bishop I'm going to ask nicely again if I could please see your dog's pedigree. I know you thought I was being rude before, but I even checked with the mods and I was not rude. I have a genuine curiosity about the lineage your dog comes from. I am largely unfamiliar with WGSL dogs and their pedigrees, and your girl sounds amazing, so I would love to learn more about the dogs she descends from. I hope you don't have something against someone trying to learn things.
 
#8 ·
I'd be interested in seeing her pedigree too, if you felt comfortable sharing, because I haven't been around very many dogs who are WL/SL crosses, and because I haven't seen much for Czech lines. I know one dog who is a WL/SL cross but I'm mostly around American show line dogs, so I just don't get exposure to German show/working line crosses.
 
#6 ·
But it is such fun.:grin2:

How do flolks teach their GSD to balance dogfood on their nose and then snatch it out of the air when told?
How do folks teach the Snake command?. Someone yells snake and the dog leaps into your arms. You have to be physically fit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chip18
#11 ·
How do folks teach the Snake command?. Someone yells snake and the dog leaps into your arms. You have to be physically fit.
Or better yet......you yell snake....you jump into the air...and your dog catches you....now that would be a circus trick and a half.

Hey...what did you expect? GSD's are crazy smart dogs.....I'm glad you are enjoying your dog's intelligence .....it's a huge selling point for the breed and probably why there are so many devoted GSD owners who never contemplate getting a different breed once they have had one.

I guess I have never paid enough attention to pedigrees to see many eastern European WL and WGSL in the same pedigree......obviously they exist...so...yeah....it would be interesting to see your dog's pedigree.

Keep enjoying your dog's smarts.....they're impressive.


SuperG
 
#7 ·
She sounds like a great dog. I'm glad you're having such a good experience with her. GSDs sure are smart. I've never used an e-collar, but I would get one for Asher, if I had to have him off leash around livestock. He is MUCH too interested in the horses in our back pasture (they belong to our neighbor). He never has direct contact with them.
 
#17 ·
I used to think that being a treat dispenser was 'bribing' your dog. When Compulsion didn't get me anywhere with an adopted dog, and only bred conflict, I gave up and went off to food/play reward dog training classes.

Oh boy! Did it open my eyes!!! I learned how dogs learn, and that training is supposed to be fun for both person and dog! I had a completely different dog by the end of that first class.

I shudder at the thought of putting a prong on a puppy, and making training so compulsive that your pup is now growling at you, and has to be muzzled. When done correctly, in a way that builds your relationship with the puppy as opposed to destroying it, pup should some running all excited and offer Obedience exercises without being asked, because they LOVE it!

I think Inga is a fine dog that she is still so trusting and willing to work with you after such a rocky start. But a year old, and already has gone through plastic and metal prong, and then e-collar? Oh boy!

We hear so much about how smart Inga is, I thought I'd look up her pedigree on the pedigree database (and she does sound very smart! I bet training her without all those gadgety collars would have been a breeze, and not brought out the fear and anger that got her growling at you).

I saw in your profile that her full registered name is Frauline "Inga" von Deutschland.
Is that her registered name? Is she registered at all? Because her name just translated to
"Miss Inga from Germany".
 
#25 ·
As I have said, there are many ways to successfully train a GSD. Don Sullivan is the way I used. She never growled at us when asked to down. She made a brief snarly face, then complied. Whether this was her breeding, her dominance in puppy litter or an early adolescent phase I do not know. But the behavior extinguished. Yes of course she is registered but it is not a breeding registry. I do not want puppys. She will be spayed after her second heat.
 
#18 ·
I couldn't imagine training without using treats. I use treats to learn new behaviors and then we go to toys and praise to work and solidify behaviors. Seems a waste to not use every option available to train dogs. Play and bonding with your dog will ensure that the dog is working for you and not objects or food a lot better than withholding or not using all training options.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Admitantly, there are many ways to skin a cat, and there are many ways to train a dog. This is what I tried and it worked. This is the most amassing dog I have ever had in my life. I just got back from a ride on a thousand acres. She heeled to my knee. Deer jumped up but she did not critter. Good girl.
 
#21 ·
So what? A good dog is a good dog . Inga is biddable, strong nerves and health and not only that, she is beautiful. A triclored saddleback, she is easily recognized by the common criminal as a GSD.

This is the training forum. Now what about those folks who have also taught circus tricks.What do they do and how did they do it?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chip18
#27 ·
I did use food trying to teach her not to eat food that might be poisoned. This was not successful. Maybe I did not do it right. No one is going to poison her anyway, we live out in the middle of now where.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Heres how they said on Leerburg how to teach the SNAKE trick. You sit on a bench and call the dog come or up to get on your lap, then also immediately yell snake. Then you squat down while standing and call them with the come and snake command. Gradually, you do this in the standing position. I would love to teach thisnow that I am fit enough for seventy lb GSD. Actually, she is pretty snake proofed. Last year I would catch rat snakes in the henhouse, they eat eggs and are very aggressive. SO I would drop one in front of Inga and she would sniff them and get bitten on the nose. She quickly learned to avoid them. Soon it will be hot enough to catch more snakes and see if she is still proofed. There are rattlesnakes here, also Copperhead, Water Moccasins and Coral snakes.
 
#35 ·
The only trick I trained my dog with using treats was to balance treats on her nose. Everything else was showing her how. Gently showing how to and then praising when they do it. I admit I tried to teach her how to rollover with treats but it didn't work. Doesn't help that she's not terribly food motivated. Funny enough my other dog started to rollover because he knew what I was trying to get her to do. He wasn't getting bribed with food either he was just doing it.

Codi I taught to heel using a leash and just getting her to follow me. When she started being a but about it I got a head halter, now she heels beautifully on or offleash. At least when she's on our property. I need to work with her out in public more. She's knows a decent amount of commands(I doubt anybody wants me to list it and it's not impressive enough to do so) and could probably learn more but I haven't worked with her enough.


What exactly is the Don Sullivan method? Maybe I should look it up. I've never actually looked up set training methods, I just knew I didn't want to treat train and so I didn't bother checking out clicker training. Also what is a tricolored saddleback?
 
#42 · (Edited)
The GSD that won the westminster dog show is what I call a tricolor saddleback- black, red, and golden. Who should look u Don Sullivan. He has a site on the internet. He is a trainer that gets results but does not use treats, more like the way you have trained. So how exactly did you teach the balance on nose then snatch the food out of the air? I can't picture this.
 
#48 ·
Lol Don Sullivan is not Kohler. There is much video of him training his own an other people's dogs if you care to look. He presents an easy system with quantifiable results which is more then most of the trainers that are touted on here can do.

If you want a well trained functionally obedient dog or pup his methods will work.
If your interested in sport or a fun experience teaching tricks to your puppy look elsewhere.

It's really not uncommon to see protest behaviours ranging from yelping, growling and nipping to manifest when your teaching truly functional obedience.
You are removing the dogs choice and showing him he must comply. At some point many dogs will experiment with behaviours to see if they can get you to stop. No different from the child and the grocery store screaming for candy.

You can either cave and resort to bribery and more permissive approaches. Or you can train through the behavior and make a reliable dog.
I have been training puppies on prongs for a while now. It makes no difference in their development or confidence level. If anything it makes for a stronger dog in the end.
 
#60 ·
Lol Don Sullivan is not Kohler. There is much video of him training his own an other people's dogs if you care to look. He presents an easy system with quantifiable results which is more then most of the trainers that are touted on here can do.

If you want a well trained functionally obedient dog or pup his methods will work.
If your interested in sport or a fun experience teaching tricks to your puppy look elsewhere.

It's really not uncommon to see protest behaviours ranging from yelping, growling and nipping to manifest when your teaching truly functional obedience.
You are removing the dogs choice and showing him he must comply. At some point many dogs will experiment with behaviours to see if they can get you to stop. No different from the child and the grocery store screaming for candy.

You can either cave and resort to bribery and more permissive aproaches. Or you can train through the behavior and make a reliable dog.
I have been training puppies on prongs for a while now. It makes no difference in their development or confidence level. If anything it makes for a stronger dog in the end.
Thank you, that explains it. I did train through. It was just for the the down and she would make a little snarly face for just a second, then comply. Then she was praised. It was a protest. She is not much food oriented anyway.
 
#49 ·
Well I watched a video of his. I wasn't too impressed with some of the things he was saying, but I'm hoping it's not that he believes it but that he's doing it to help teach the owner and put them in a different mind set, which he mentioned. His methods seemed to work pretty decent in the one video, at least short term. In most dogs it really is people training more than dog training though.
 
#53 ·
I have easily trained fully reliable and cooperative responses in OB, off leash, with food and tug rewards.

A little collar correction here and there is fine, but getting a snarly face response or out-right protest behaviour means too much compulsion early on.

I do believe that results alone are not the criteria that training methods need to be evaluated on: the mindset of the dog needs to be taken into account too. For example, many dogs become collar wise when correction collars are used and training is compulsive - shows that the fear of the correction is what motivates them, not respect for the trainer, or the desire to comply.

My experience is that I got super results off leash, with positive, reward-based training techniques. With Keeta, ALL I was getting was protest behaviours with collar corrections and leash control, all that went away when we switched training methods.
 
#56 ·
Yes, it is well known different methods work with different dogs. You go with what works. Inga does get reward, its praise and pets. But not overboard praise. Sportdog trainers say look at your dog when they get either praise or a mild correction. They will acknowledge that they got it with a lick of their lips, just like a trained horse does when they acknowledge. Do not go farther with the praise or mild correction, it distracts them from learning.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top