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Old 03-01-2015, 06:16 PM   #1 (permalink)
Nyx
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Default Help please- wrong association with commands.

As many of you may be reading I have a very ball driven female.

Before I knew I could train with the ball we worked with treats and praise much to my dismay with less than stellar results because of her lack of interest and my ignorance.

When trying to help her understand what I desired; i.e. command sit- I pushed her rear down or command down- I pulled out front legs until laying; now we have misunderstood ques. We have sit as "laydown" because when I would correct by pushing her rear down she would just lay down.

How can I reinforce or retrain her to understand the command cue better?

She is not technically doing wrong, since she did learn by my force.

I have tried to correct this by letting her figure out to 'just sit' and then reward as quickly as possible. But she still goes through the initial squirming sit(laying down) instead of just the sit.

Advice?
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Old 03-01-2015, 07:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Start over again without verbal cues.For sit,walk into her holding the toy so she has to look up.When she sits she gets the toy and praise.She'll figure it out quickly.Then add the verbal cue.No need to position her with your hands.
After she has mastered the sit you can work on the down.Have her sit,praise,pause a moment(important!) Bring the toy straight down to the ground then along the ground towards you slowly.She will follow the toy with her head and paws and lay down.Praise and give the toy.Add the verbal cue after she responds well to your hand signal.
Dogs respond to your body language and clear hand signals more quickly and easily.There are lots of you tube videos out there on how to teach these basic concepts.Might be better to watch those then try to decipher my instructions
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Old 03-01-2015, 07:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Was it her lack of interest in the treats or training itself? All mine liked treats enough to use the treat to guide them. Moving the treat up and rearward from the nose usually causing them to sit automatic, also from the nose downward toward their chest for an auto down. You may be able to get the same from a toy, haven't tried myself though. I would change the cue you are using, maybe try german instead and starting fresh.
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Old 03-01-2015, 07:43 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogma13 View Post
Start over again without verbal cues.For sit,walk into her holding the toy so she has to look up.When she sits she gets the toy and praise.She'll figure it out quickly.Then add the verbal cue.No need to position her with your hands.
After she has mastered the sit you can work on the down.Have her sit,praise,pause a moment(important!) Bring the toy straight down to the ground then along the ground towards you slowly.She will follow the toy with her head and paws and lay down.Praise and give the toy.Add the verbal cue after she responds well to your hand signal.
Dogs respond to your body language and clear hand signals more quickly and easily.There are lots of you tube videos out there on how to teach these basic concepts.Might be better to watch those then try to decipher my instructions
I think we're on same page, both with the training idea and with attempting to describe it, lol videos would probably be a good idea.
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Old 03-01-2015, 07:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogma13 View Post
Start over again without verbal cues.For sit,walk into her holding the toy so she has to look up.When she sits she gets the toy and praise.She'll figure it out quickly.Then add the verbal cue.No need to position her with your hands.
After she has mastered the sit you can work on the down.Have her sit,praise,pause a moment(important!) Bring the toy straight down to the ground then along the ground towards you slowly.She will follow the toy with her head and paws and lay down.Praise and give the toy.Add the verbal cue after she responds well to your hand signal.
Dogs respond to your body language and clear hand signals more quickly and easily.There are lots of you tube videos out there on how to teach these basic concepts.Might be better to watch those then try to decipher my instructions
Good advice...

Just to elaborate more.
You can lure the dog with food. Where the head moves the but goes the opposite way...

As soon as the dog sits give a marker-(Just say-yes or good)
Repeat over and over...

Eventually the dog just sits by you lifting your hand, or posturing with your body the way you taught the sit...

Then when the dog always gets it... Say: Sit.... (The dog might not know the command yet) So AFTER you say sit.. Give the gesture with the hand...

Eventually the dog will realise that Sit proceeds the sit gesture... The dog will eventually realise that sit means I get a reward if I sit. Eventually you can slowly take out the hand gesture.. The dog will get it.

NB important for word to proceed the hand gesture... Reason for this is if it is the same time or after... The dog draws no meaning to the word sit... It is going strictly off the gesture and couldnt care less to learn the sit word..

This is based on an experiment done by Ivan Pavlov (google pavlov's dogs)
Dogs are conditioned to salivate to a bell if they hear a bell directly before they eat..
If they hear it after or during their meal, they could not care less, or predict that food is coming. (they are already eating... They have what they want... No longer care about the bell.. It is background noise.)

There is also such thing as a terminal and duration markers... (Markers indicate the dog did good and a treat is coming).
Google around to find how to use these.

P.s. Attaching a video here would be so much easier... I get flack for attaching dog training videos by user's...
Ppl dont mind if I type and explain. Will never understand that mentality.

Last edited by Lykoz; 03-01-2015 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:10 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Thank you very much for your insights. I really do appreciate them and can see how the movement and position of myself and the 'reward' can help promote proper position in her.

So I need to start over, use the proper reward(ball) and its position and myself to get her in the pose I am seeking. Work on body/hand cues then add a new verbal command(german or other).

I don't mind video's I was looking but I guess I was looking under the wrong search words.

Nigel:
A combination of both are the culprits. My hands on her for positioning and her giving so much to please- just flopping down instead of sitting.

But she absolutely has no interest at all in treats. She wont take them from other people at all and only takes them from me when she see's my other dog begging for them. She usually ends up spitting them out after she takes them, especially when being 'worked'. If she is relaxed and it is something she really likes she will take it and eat it.
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:29 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Will she tug with a ball on a string? Perhaps try the same motions with that if she will.
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Boy when I first saw this I thought to myself...I don't have a clue??

But upon further reflection..I think I do have a clue!

Clicker training maybe your solution? I have zero first hand experiance with it myself never had the need but every dog is different so you never know when you might need to do something different?

You will have to learn how to properly use one of course, if you chose to go that route. And I'm not saying it is the solution but it seems reasonable to me.
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:29 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
Thank you very much for your insights. I really do appreciate them and can see how the movement and position of myself and the 'reward' can help promote proper position in her.

So I need to start over, use the proper reward(ball) and its position and myself to get her in the pose I am seeking. Work on body/hand cues then add a new verbal command(german or other).

I don't mind video's I was looking but I guess I was looking under the wrong search words.

Nigel:
A combination of both are the culprits. My hands on her for positioning and her giving so much to please- just flopping down instead of sitting.

But she absolutely has no interest at all in treats. She wont take them from other people at all and only takes them from me when she see's my other dog begging for them. She usually ends up spitting them out after she takes them, especially when being 'worked'. If she is relaxed and it is something she really likes she will take it and eat it.
Try cut up hotdogs see what the dog likes - what excites the dog.. Using a ball as a reward is also good.

I think its a little more complicated though. As Michael Ellis describes it... There are 'rules of play'. Tug toys work awesome for this.

Rules of play that are required for the dog to learn well with toys:
The dog must release the tug on command
must bring the tug/ball back
Dog must get excited for the toy.

Last edited by Lykoz; 03-01-2015 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:28 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Incorporating hand signals into your training as someone previously mentioned...

Hand signals and other body motions are easy for a dog to read in my experience and are difficult to screw up.


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